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Draft minutes of 28 Feb 2005 f2f

From: Norman Walsh <Norman.Walsh@Sun.COM>
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:00:12 -0500
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-id: <87r7ir9w0j.fsf@nwalsh.com>
Sorry for the delay. I've now published draft minutes[1] of the 28 Feb 2005
f2f meeting based on a lightly edited copy of the IRC log[2]. A text
copy is included below for convenience.

Boston TAG F2F

28 Feb 2005

   See also: IRC log

Attendees

   Present
           Ed, Vincent, Stuart, Henry, Tim, Dave, Dan, Roy, Noah, Norm, Chris

   Regrets

   Chair
           Vincent

   Scribe
           Norm

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Face-to-face meeting planning
         2. Issue list management
         3. Dinner for tonight
         4. Quarterly reports
         5. Maintaining WebArch
         6. Reallocate actions and documents "owned" by departing TAG members
         7. New Directions
         8. RDFinXHTML-35
         9. binary XML
        10. RDFinXHTML-35
     * Summary of Action Items

     ----------------------------------------------------------------------

   <h1> IRC log of tagmem on 2005-02-28</h1>

   <p> <em>Timestamps are in UTC.</em></p>

   Date: 28 Feb 2005

   <DanC_lap> Agenda: <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/02/28-agenda.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/02/28-agenda.html</a>

   <DanC_> Chair: Vincent

   <DanC_> Scribe: Norm

   <DanC_> (HT is hobbled; laptop broke; envious of timbl's ski tags)

   <dorchard> (razzes HT about possessing computing)

   <DanC_> VQ reviews agenda...

   <DanC_> agenda is OK

   <DanC_> RESOLVED to accept them as a true record

   <DanC_> VQ: next meeting 8 March.

   <DanC_> Regrets DanC, HT. DO at risk

   <DanC_> Regrets DanC, HT, VQ. DO at risk

   <DanC_> NDW to chair

   <DanC_> Ed to scribe 8 Mar

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/01/TechnicalPlenaryLiaisons.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/01/TechnicalPlenaryLiaisons.html</a>
   Tentative TAG Liaison Meeting Schedule

   <DanC_> Revision 1.30 2005/02/28 01:38:08

   <DanC_> VQ: all joint meetings are in the other group's room

   Plan to discuss web services endpoints and URIs w/WS WG

   Plan to meet with Compound Documents Format WG

   Discuss: mixed namespace documents

   Plan to meet with XML Core WG on Thur

   Discuss: future of XML/xml:id and C14N/xmlChunk-44

   DanC: agenda request to discuss binary XML

   Plan to meet with Voice Browser and Schema on Thur afternoon

   Face-to-face meeting planning:

  Face-to-face meeting planning

   8-10 June in/near Cannes, FR

   W3C Team in Sophia is offering to organize the meeting as expected

   The location they propose is at Inria in Sophia

   Henry offers 8-10 June in Edinburgh

   TimBL sends regrets, plans to participate by phone

   <timbl> By videophone.

   <timbl> I meant.

   <timbl> DC, DO, VQ, NM, ER france

   <timbl> TBL abstains

   We will meet in/near Cannes for the June meeting

   20-22 Sep in Kansas City

   Hosted by DanC

   <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/01/TechnicalPlenaryLiaisons.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/01/TechnicalPlenaryLiaisons.html</a>

   Discussion of Edinburgh in Sep

   20-22 Sep in Edinburgh?, something with the AC?, KC in early 2006?

   We will meet in Edinburgh, 20-22 Sep 2005

  Issue list management

   VQ proposes to take the discussion offline with a few volunteers

   IJ was taking minutes and keeping the list up-to-date, we're not doing as
   good a job

   PC notes that the fact that the issue pointed back to the minutes where it
   was last discussed was a huge value add

   VQ asks for volunteers: ER, SW, IJ, and VQ.

   VQ will organize and get a proposal for the next telcon

  Dinner for tonight

   Noah reports the time is 7:30p at a restaurant in the North End

   Noah will try to move it earlier and report back

  Quarterly reports

   CL notes that we're delinquent

   PC reminds us that IJ used to do this

   <noah> Amy is not on IRC at the moment, will try to reach her later.

   It is useful to get a report out in advance of the AC meetings

   <scribe> ACTION: SW volunteers to draft a report for this quarter
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

  Maintaining WebArch

   CL sent some mail:

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/webarch/errata.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/webarch/errata.html</a>
   webarch errata

   <a
   href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0188.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0188.html</a>

   Norm notes that this is comment is similar to one from Mark Baker

   HT summarizes the meaning of an erratum

   NW offers to construct an erratum page

   <scribe> ACTION: NW offers to construct an erratum page [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   <DanC_> construct an ereratum page? it's already there.

   <DanC_> I'd like NDW to ack the problem report on the errata page

   <scribe> ACTION: NW to frame the erratum as proposed by CL as an entry for
   the erratum page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc
   /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   <DanC_> RESOLVED: to adopt erratum proposed by CL in <a
   href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0188.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0188.html</a>

  Reallocate actions and documents "owned" by departing TAG members

   VQ asks CL, PC, and SW if they could in the next few days summarize the
   items that they are still working on for the TAG

   <scribe> ACTION: CL to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: SW to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: PC to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

  New Directions

   VQ asks if we have plans for a second volume

   DanC suggests educational material

   DanC also suggests that extensibility and versioning would be a good
   second volume

   Noah asks about WWW 2005

   VQ observes that there is a W3C track at the conference

   <Chris> re: erratum, sent to public-webarch-comments. <a
   href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2005JanMar/0001.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2005JanMar/0001.html</a>

   <DanC_> (hmm... talking about WWW2005 seems in order during "new
   directions"... table it in favor of what, I wonder?)

   PC: when we triaged the issues list for V1, we explicitly excluded some
   issues, it would make sense to look at all the issues we didn't want to do
   for V1

   dorchard: I support E&V, but there's an architecture piece we haven't
   talked about: XML Architecture
   ... xml:id, binary XML, XML Chunk, these all feel like questions about XML
   at the border but I think that there's the question of XML going forward
   ... I think that it would be fruitful for the TAG to look at this issue

   SW asks if XML Core or XML CG does hits

   DO observes that there's a constallation of XML-related WGs and it seems
   to me that the CG was more of a coordination body not a technical
   coordinator. More process than technical.

   timbl: a lot of the things we've been patching up are related to these
   areas on the borders
   ... I think we'll be working on XML as part of our broader scope
   ... One possibility is to try to do a more formal system to describe some
   of the things that we've been saying
   ... Another possibility is to try to tackle Web Services, SemWeb, web
   applications
   ... Web applications is a huge new architectural issue and maybe we could
   try to do some more timely work

   DanC: I'm interested to do web applications, but I'm not sure how. It'd be
   interesting to have someone come and present "GMail" to us. Some education
   from experts would be useful.

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention 1) making a more formal description
   to exiting areas as one direction and 2) going into areas which we
   excluded, such as web services, semantic web,

   noah: I agree with a lot of what TimBL said, but I think we need to put
   some effort into making sure the web stays a current platform

   <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say that we have probably missed some
   particulars that are close to scope of AWWW vol 1

   noah: I think we should be asking ourselves which problems the web should
   be solving over the next few years and if the architectural pieces we have
   available are the right ones
   ... In the completely opposite direction there are some things that we
   didn't put in V1 thatcould have gone in V1 and we should be willing to
   tackle those as well.
   ... I think we shouldn't narrow this too much right away, we should give
   ourselves a license to noodle around in these spaces for a few months to
   see which ones we might be good at

   dorchard: Is there an intermediate ground in the formalism space?
   ... I did try to put some more formal models in some of the findings I
   worked on

   DO mentioned UML and TimBL expresses that he thinks a UML model is
   mathematical

   DanC: I'd like to finish some of that stuff

   dorchard: I wanted some of these models in V1 and we decided not to do
   that. But maybe we could do it as an add-on

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/fdesc54/">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/fdesc54/</a>
   WebArch Diagrams

   DanC discusses his ideas for "tip of the day" on the W3C validator page

   VQ notes that he's been asked several times for educational materials.
   Teachers like the WebArch document.

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/">http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/</a> Quality
   Tips for Webmasters

   <DanC_> (tip of the day was an idea a long time ago; it's in production
   now)

   VQ asks if we have enough resources to develop teaching materials

   <DanC_> (ooh... interesting, timbl... bounties for what we want)

   TimBL asks if we couldn't ask the public for some things that we'd like to
   see: an elementary-school level of webarch, etc.

   ER there's two topics: current and future so should we have to addresses?

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties/document_view">http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties/document_view</a>
   ubuntu bounties

   <DanC_> "The 2004 budget for bounties is USD 100,000."

   HT seconds DanC's suggestion: you write a good webarch educational
   document and we'll link to it from our home page

   Noah asks if we're offering to link to just a few things or to everything

   DanC volunteers to act as editor for educational materials

   There will need to be some decisions about how the licensing works

   <DanC_> ACTION: DanC to make an "educational materials" page, describe
   what we're interested in, and set expectations [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   <Roy> <a
   href="http://apache.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/document/">http://apache.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/document/</a>

   Observer Jacek Kopecky expresses interet and wonders if it shouldn't apply
   to the whole W3C suite of technologies

   <DanC_> ACTION: DanC to let QA and w3t-comm know about TAG's educational
   materials ideas and relay JK's note about coordiated materials [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   VQ summarizes: I think we have a consensus that we should spend some time
   on that and precisely to make a first step in that direction by doing an
   experiment as described above. We should announce that on www-tag and
   suggest using that mailing list as a way to submit material to us.

   HT: TimBL mentioned some things about formalizing which connects up with
   discussions that occurred just before publication. There was an
   implication that some things would be on the table wrt httpRange-14. That
   issue ties together a lot of issues. I'd like us to do some more work on
   that.
   ... In the next couple of days HT (and colleagues) will be proposing a
   workshop at the SemWeb conference in Galway in Nov(?)

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://iswc2005.semanticweb.org/">http://iswc2005.semanticweb.org/</a>
   6th - 10th November 2005

   <DanC_> Galway, Ireland

   SW: There are some large issues that it's disappointing to leave
   unfinished

   Noah suggests that we could write a document that actually lays out the
   boundaries of the question

   noah: set expectations that we're not going to expect everyone to read all
   the traffic on the issue, that we're going to start by trying to net the
   problem out

  RDFinXHTML-35

  binary XML

   <DanC_> -> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xbc-use-cases-20050224/">http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xbc-use-cases-20050224/</a>
   XML Binary Characterization Use Cases

   They think they're done

   DanC should I pursue my concerns here or elsewhere:

   DanC has some concerns: I disagree with a lot of their use cases

   DanC: I don't think they've articulated their case very successfully

   DO concurs to review it

   PC suggests we start with CL's original summary of the issue

   <DanC_> rather: I *do* think they've articulated their use cases pretty
   well (and thanks for that! lots of WGs don't). But I am not convinced by
   the argument they make

   <Chris> binaryXML-30:

   <Chris> Standardize a "binary XML" format?

   <Chris> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#binaryXML-30">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#binaryXML-30</a>

   <Chris> I sent in a summary, earlier on. The ball has passed to the XBC
   WG, I do

   <Chris> not consider myself to be critical path on this one. XBC is nearly

   <Chris> completed, TAG has said it will review their deliverables. I
   suggest

   <Chris> inviting Robin Berjon to a TAG call to discuss this.

   <Chris> <a
   href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0248.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0248.html</a>

   <Chris> the above email closes my action item

   Noah notes that we should try to decide if we're going to try to get in
   the critical path of whether or not a new WG is spun up

   dorchard: I think I would like the TAG to review that material sooner
   rather than later. And as an AC rep, I would like the TAGs review before I
   was asked to make a decision.
   ... We should say quite loudly that we plan on reviewing it

   <Chris> future of xml - mention XBC

   <noah> The TAG is chartered to document and build consensus around
   principles of Web architecture and to interpret and clarify these
   principles when necessary. The XML Binary Characterization Working Group
   consult with the Technical Architecture Group regarding the properties of
   XML and refer issues to the TAG when necessary. The Working Group is also
   expected to provide feedback regarding issue binaryXML-30.

   <noah> Above is from charter of Binary characterization WG

   Henry agrees to review the documents

   <scribe> ACTION: HT to review the XBC documents with help from Noah
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

  RDFinXHTML-35

   <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/specbg.html">http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/specbg.html</a>

   <timbl> I note that the XML BCP does not contain "ASN"

   DanC describes GRDDL

   <Chris> <a
   href="http://inamidst.com/grddl/demo">http://inamidst.com/grddl/demo</a>

   DanC describes how creative commons and open archives are working together
   to make this work

   <Chris> <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec">http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec</a>

   <Chris> DanC describes special XHTML 2 syntax for RDF

   DanC notes some developments in XHTML 2.0 to deal with RDF

   Norm gives Dan's rdxh/spec document a thumbs up

   CL asks why you can't just read the RDF out of the XML

   TimBL notes that it does get transformed, it strips out all the SVG

   <noah> TimBl specifically noted that it's not in general safe to trust
   Tags such as <metadata> unless licensed by the specification for the
   language in which they appear. For example, you may have
   <dontTrustContents><metadata>....</metadata></dontTrustContents>

   HT notes that this approach is different from the more general case of
   adding, for example, declarations to a schema

   HT observes that you have to trust the XSLT

   <Chris> Dan says that the 'yes believe the RDF here' attributes should be
   part of the standard library

   <scribe> ACTION: DanC to continue working on this [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]

   DanC: is WS-A using IRC?

   How's it going?

   Is there a two sentence summary?

   <Vincent> Norm, what's the uri of the irc log of the Tag f2f?

   Vincent: <a
   href="http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc">http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc</a>

   <Vincent> Norm, I get a 403 Forbidden

   <dorchard> Noah, TimBl here?

   <noahf2fRoom> Noah's here

   <timbl> Hi

   <noah> Hi tim

   <noah> I think we agreed to assemble at 18:30 by main door of hotel to
   begin debate on whether to take Taxi or "T" :-)

   <noah> OK?

   <timbl> OK

   <timbl> I'll drive anyway

   <timbl> Do we have an address?

   <noah> OK. Yes, it was in email from me when I announced it, but I'll get
   it for you in a minute. The simple answer is that it's just off Hanover
   St. in the North End, very near the end of Hanover St. that's by the big
   dig.

   <noah> I'll get exact addresss.

   <noah> Unfortunately, I have no clue on parking down there.

   <noah> Ida's

   <noah> 3 Mechanic St.

   <noah> 617-523-0015

   <timbl> well done.

   <noah> That's Ida's restaurant. Alan Kotok set it up with Amy.

   <noah> More info in email at <a
   href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Feb/0042.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Feb/0042.html</a>

   <noah> And thank you.

   <noah> Glad you're joining us.

   <timbl>
   http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&address=3+mechanic+street&city=Boston&state=ma&zipcode=

   <timbl> Oh yes, its very near public parking like Faneuil hall etc

   <noah> See picture at: <a
   href="http://www.planet99.com/boston/restaurants/11639.htm">http://www.planet99.com/boston/restaurants/11639.htm</a>

   <noah> I'm up in Henry's room (lending him my laptop). We're heading down
   now. See you at the restaurant.

   <noah> over n out?

   <timbl>
   http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?go=1&do=nw&un=m&cl=EN&ct=NA&rsres=1&1ex=1&1aa=ce41fYwt9%252bwngixA63tuKWkg0HDA%252by2QFIo3DwCxsSpd3dV0AsfP1fBM1VA7KVAB5Wjc8cbagMm%252bk3qpL0MrNVfF5xNPAKvnqCADHoWRBrA%253d&1ah=&2y=US&2a=3+Mechanic+St&2c=Boston&2s=MA&2z=02113-2336&2ah=

   <timbl> Ok

   <timbl> I'm happy to take 2 people

   <noah> OK, well as I say, they're all planning to assemble at front door
   for big debate on transport modes.

   <noah> Feel free to join us for that. Dinner's not officially until 7:30,
   though walking in North End's surely as pleasant as being in the hotel.

   <noah> Heading down now.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: CL to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DanC to continue working on this [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DanC to let QA and w3t-comm know about TAG's educational
   materials ideas and relay JK's note about coordiated materials [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: DanC to make an "educational materials" page, describe what
   we're interested in, and set expectations [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: HT to review the XBC documents with help from Noah [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: NW offers to construct an erratum page [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: NW to frame the erratum as proposed by CL as an entry for
   the erratum page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc
   /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: PC to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: SW to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: SW volunteers to draft a report for this quarter [recorded
   in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
    
   [End of minutes]

     ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.115 (CVS log)
    $Date: 2005/03/07 17:58:40 $

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/02/28-minutes.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc

-- 
Norman.Walsh@Sun.COM / XML Standards Architect / Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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Received on Monday, 7 March 2005 18:00:47 GMT

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