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Minutes, 16 November 2009 SVG WG telcon

From: Jonathan Watt <jwatt@jwatt.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:50:52 +0100
Message-ID: <4B01C93C.1010807@jwatt.org>
To: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html

---

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                   SVG Working Group Teleconference

16 Nov 2009

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
          jwatt, [IPcaller], anthony, ed, Shepazu.a, Shepazu,
          Doug_Schepers

   Regrets
   Chair
          Erik

   Scribe
          anthony, Jonathan Watt

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Next SVG F2F
         2. [5]3D Transforms
         3. [6]SVG 1.1 2nd Ed.
         4. [7]Transforms module feedback
         5. [8]SVG DOM
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



   <trackbot> Date: 16 November 2009

   <anthony> Scribe: anthony

Next SVG F2F

   <jwatt> scribe: Jonathan Watt

   <jwatt> scribenick: jwatt

   AG: we were tentatively thinking 10-14 (Wed-Sun) Feb 2010
   ... but if that puts too much of a squeeze on Erik's travel, maybe
   we can move it back a day
   ... we should start booking soon, because things start to fill up
   quickly

   ED: I would prefer to move it back a day or two
   ... one day is probably enough
   ... but I need to check flight times
   ... worst case, I miss the last day

   JW: I'm okay with shifting it back a day

   <ed> shepazu: you ok with 9-13th feb?

   JW: we should check it meets Doug's constraints too

3D Transforms

   [10]http://www.w3.org/mid/200911160854.nAG8sNIH030663@mail16.tpgi.co
   m.au

     [10] http://www.w3.org/mid/200911160854.nAG8sNIH030663@mail16.tpgi.com.au

   <anthony>
   [11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0025.html

     [11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0025.html

   JW: It's not completely clear to me what the second of those two
   links requires
   ... but I think it's covered by z-index from what I understand
   ... waiting on feedback to the email I sent him

   <ed>
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-WG-charter.html

   <anthony>
   [13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransformsReqs.html

     [13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransformsReqs.html

   JW: do we want to make a formal statement of the extent and limits
   of SVG's 3D ambitions?

   ED: our charter does talk about pseudo 3D

   AG: and we have our use cases and requirements document

   <ed> "To allow more advanced design features and efficient
   decorative effects, there will be attention paid to new stroking and
   filling options, including pseudo-3D (2.5D) effects by means of new
   gradients, filters, and non-affine transformations, with authoring
   tips for their use."

   AG: that says what we're trying to address

   JW: we have the new transforms module and the z-index proposal

   ED: and gradients may have some pseudo-3D effects

   <scribe> ACTION: anthony to send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D
   ambitions [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2691 - Send an email clarifying our
   pseudo-3D ambitions [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23].

   <scribe> ACTION: anthony to update the wiki page with the F2F times
   [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2692 - Update the wiki page with the F2F
   times [on Anthony Grasso - due 2009-11-23].

   DS: I think we've not done a very good job of articulating our
   pseudo-3D ambitions
   ... maybe we need to start using the front page of our wiki to more
   clearly articulate where we're going

   JW: sounds good

   DS: I'm going to try to redesign the front page to be much more
   friendly

   <scribe> ACTION: doug to redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and
   articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2693 - Redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and
   articulate there our pseudo-3D ambitions [on Doug Schepers - due
   2009-11-23].

   DS: we've been using the wiki to collect our thoughts for ourselves,
   but we should start using it to disseminate information
   ... in a more friendly form, with links to all the relevant
   documents
   ... and we need to have good links from the main page to these pages

   JW: agreed

   AG: okay, i'll make a page and just link to it in the reply I send
   to the list

   DS: and if Microsoft does join the group some time soon, then
   probably other companies will join too
   ... in which case it will be especially useful to have documents
   that lots of new members can use to catch up more quickly

SVG 1.1 2nd Ed.

   ED: I'm going to commit the zip with the Java bindings
   ... I haven't looked at every single one of them, so I can't
   guarantee that they are all correct
   ... I'm planning to email Cameron and Vincent

   DS: and ask on the public list for a public review

   ED: I can add the diffs
   ... most of them are fairly small
   ... but it's still 300 files or so
   ... I'll do that after the telcon

   <ed>
   [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_
   Edition

     [17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Errata_in_SVG_1.1_Second_Edition

   ED: the other thing that needs to be done is review the 3 unreviewed
   tests on this page
   ... I haven't had time to do it yet
   ... if anyone else feels like doing it, feel free
   ... it may be hard to review that test until we've decided how to
   resolve the issues in the "Again with the getIntersectionList()"
   thread on the public list
   ... so maybe we should schedule that for next week

   <ed>
   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/000
   5.html

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009OctDec/0005.html

   ED: but that's one of the last few things we need to do before we
   can publish
   ... maybe a few other's from Cameron's email
   ... okay, I'll put IntersectionList down for Thursday
   ... there's nothing major from Cameron's list, I think
   ... so we should be able to get 2nd Ed out very soon - it would be
   nice to have it out of the way
   ... are the harnesses for the test suite in good shape?

   AG: yes
   ... I committed a whole bunch of stuff recently
   ... all the scripts are up to date
   ... I removed the svggen directory
   ... I started going over the Batik render errors
   ... to make sure the references are getting produced correctly
   ... I haven't tested the archive generation, but I'm fairly
   confident it's working correctly

Transforms module feedback

   <ed>
   [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0041.html

     [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2009Nov/0041.html

   <anthony>
   [20]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransforms.html

     [20] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/transforms/SVGTransforms.html

   ED: the first two questions are strongly related to z-index

   DS: we should look at how CSS transforms deal with z-index

   <ed> [21]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/#transform-style

     [21] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/#transform-style

   <shepazu> [[The position on the Z axis of a transformed element does
   not affect the order within a stacking context. With elements at the
   same z-index, objects are drawn in order of increasing z position.
   ]]

   JW: that makes sense to me

   DS: and CSS and SVG should be consistent on this
   ... one way or another

   JW: so with transforms one part of the element will appear to be
   further along the z-axis than another part of the same element

   AG: yes

   JW: so in principle you could have two elements rotated around the
   z-axis that could cut through each other

   AG: yes, so you have to ask yourself if you want to go full 3D like
   that
   ... which means you have to have a completely different rendering
   model and solve all sorts of problems

   JW: you probably need hardware support at that point, which is
   pobably going further than we want

   DS: I don't think we should go to actual 3D
   ... I think what they've done in CSS transforms is what we should do

   <shepazu> [[ ‘transform-style’ property : Note that while
   ‘preserve-3d’ can be specified on an element, the effect may not be
   possible. Elements that have ‘overflow’ set to ‘hidden’ are unable
   to keep their children in 3D. In this case the element will behave
   as if the property was set to ‘flat’. ]]

   <shepazu> [[ This flattening takes place at each element ]]

   <general agreement about using the CSS way>

   DS: I think we should articulate this somewhere

   JW: the way to think about it is elements are painted one at a time
   ... as an element is painted, it in by itself given a 3D transform,
   and painted
   ... when the next element is painted, the same thing
   ... this is totally different to taking all elements, arranging them
   in 3D space, then painting the 3D scene

   AG: I think both the CSS spec and our spec should be a lot clearer
   about this

   DS: the SVG and CSS WGs have gotten a lot better at working together
   ... and I think we need to work a lot closer still with transforms
   ... so that 3D transforms are completely consistent between the two
   specs
   ... possibly one spec would be the way to go
   ... it would probably be a good place to talk about z-index as well,
   since how it interacts with 3D transforms needs to be clear

   ED: we should mark up our requirements clearly
   ... it would be interesting to have sections on how things apply to
   HTML and other sections on how things apply to SVG in the same
   document

   DS: the CSS transforms spec seems stalled for the moment, so making
   a joint effort on a joint spec could hopefully get things started
   again
   ... going back to Steve's email, I think Antony should reply, and
   put unresolved issues into tracker
   ... mention that we will be talking to the CSS WG, and that he
   should also take a look at the CSS WG's spec
   ... he says he doesn't like matrices, and I don't like them either

   AG: we should have them for completeness though

SVG DOM

   <shepazu> [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM

     [22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM

   DS: we should add our commentary to the "commentary" page

   <shepazu> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM_Report

     [23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/DOM_Report

   DS: stuff that's good, stuff that should be dropped, stuff to
   improve...

   <scribe> ACTION: anthony to check with JS about joining forces with
   the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-2694 - Check with JS about joining forces
   with the CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [on Anthony
   Grasso - due 2009-11-23].

   trackbot: end telcon

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: anthony to check with JS about joining forces with the
   CSS WG, and if that's okay, approach them [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: anthony to send an email clarifying our pseudo-3D
   ambitions [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: anthony to update the wiki page with the F2F times
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: doug to redesign the SVG WG wiki page, and articulate
   there our pseudo-3D ambitions [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135
    ([30]CVS log)
    $Date: 2009/11/16 21:45:50 $
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     [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Received on Monday, 16 November 2009 21:51:23 GMT

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