W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-svg@w3.org > November 2002

Re: Identical rendering? [was Re: SVG 1.2 General feedback]

From: Vadim Plessky <plessky@cnt.ru>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:51:02 +0300
To: www-svg@w3.org
Message-Id: <200211201951.02741.plessky@cnt.ru>

On Wednesday 20 November 2002 7:07 pm, Thomas E Deweese wrote:
|  >>>>> "VP" == Vadim Plessky <plessky@cnt.ru> writes:
|  VP> In a short: I stopped using TTF fonts about year ago, and
|  VP> actively promote usage of PostScript Type1 (or Type2/CFF)
|  VP> fonts.
|  VP> On Wednesday 20 November 2002 5:11 pm, Thomas E Deweese wrote:
|  > Any particular reason why?
|  VP> Here they are:
|      [...]
|  VP> Hope this helps!..
|      Yup, of course PostScript(tm) is totally free of problems either :)

PostScript is *terrible* language (hey, 800 pages in PLRM 3rd edition), PDF is 
a good example how specs *should not* be designed.
Encoding of fonts in PS Type1 specification is another example of such *gift*.
But encoding of font in Type2/CFF is better.

Good points about PostScript:
* PS primitives/drawing API
 That's what is implemented in libart (not everything but significant part of 
it) and upcoming Xr/Xc.
* Postscript-to-Raster drivers (or PDF-to-Raster)
 As an example, I can again mention CUPS (http://www.cups.org), Adobe Acrobat 
Reader (which can print PDF on different printers), GhostScript and some 
other rasterizers.

I really don't know anything else what I would like to take from PostScript, 
if I design PDL (Page Description Language) from scratch.

|  VP> I had impression that there is an understanding of HStem and Vstem
|  VP> in W3C standards (at least it's in CSS3).  And someone told me
|  VP> that SVG fonts canbe hinted in Adobe's PS model (Adobe CFF format,
|  VP> or Type2 fonts)
|      The Adobe viewer allows you to embed some fonts in the SVG file (I
|  think they use OpenType?).  However, there is no conformance criteria
|  on SVG viewers to read and understand any of these other font formats.
|  'SVG Fonts' meaning fonts defined in XML using SVG, currently have no
|  notion of hinting.
|      I'll go take a look at what CSS3 is doing with HStem and VStem.

They use VStem/HStem for font identification (as an alternative to PANOSE), 

|  VP> There are lots of 'art' fonts that would look _much_ better if
|  VP> they could use color.  You could then have real 'illuminated'
|  VP> fonts, etc.
|  VP> I think 3D (in particular, OpenGL) is much better for *illuminated
|  VP> objects*, etc.  Apple recently introduced Quartz Extreme, which
|  VP> combines Display PDF and OpenGL API.  Sounds interesting, IMO.
|      Given your interest in high quality rendering I would think you
|  would want to stay away from OpenGL.  In Quartz Extreme they do do
|  lots of really cool stuff with OpenGL, however most vector rendering
|  is not done using OpenGL as the anti-aliasing was not very high
|  quality.

Yes, someone told me that OpenGL just use 4x oversampling.
Adobe also uses 4x oversampling.

AFAIK only FreeType has something better. :-)

Anyway:  we [Linux/*BSD developers] need to compete with Apple, Microsoft and 
So, if Quartz Extreme is useful for something, most likely we need to create 
comparable, or betetr, implementation.
Are Quartz Extreme API available online?
Is someone aware of any efforts to create open-source Quartz/Quartz Extreme?

|  VP> Just so it is clear SVG isn't aiming to replace HTML - where text
|  VP> is king, it is trying to provide a format where vector graphics
|  VP> and text and raster images play a more balanced role.
|  VP> But SVG can be used as *final distribution* format for documents,
|  VP> no?  I SVG can replace closed PDF at some moment.  What we need
|  VP> for this is good, fast SVG renderer, and necessary support for
|  VP> printers (drivers).  I can think CUPS can be a good start for
|  VP> this.  We just need replace PS with SVG, and GhostScript with good
|  VP> SVG renderer.
|      Well, SVG can be used in a large number of places and this is
|  certainly one of them.  You should take a look at Batik it is
|  currently the most conformant SVG renderer available (unfortunately
|  for you it does not do font hinting at all).  But it is certainly
|  capable of taking the place of a tool like GhostScript (who's font
|  rendering is generally much worse than Batik's - IMHO).

I doubt that Batik is capable to take a place of GhostScript.
It requires Java, it's slow, and it's huge.

Java will die in 6-12 months, unless Sun finally change its mind and make Java 
Open-Source.**  So, it's not good idea IMO to use product based on 
close-to-death technology.

** C# will eat Java's lunch, as Sun is a way behind Microsoft with marketing 
experience, and Java has no advanatges over C#.

Best Regards,

Vadim Plessky
SVG Icons
Received on Wednesday, 20 November 2002 11:56:04 UTC

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