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Re: [css-text] Arabic letters connecting between elements with display: inline

From: Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin <aharon@google.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:37:16 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+FsOYYJ511k7RS5xScUSKAfs-Kgf1iacdRX=L71Va8tupzFfw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org>
Cc: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>, Simon Montagu <smontagu@mozilla.com>, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@google.com>, "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>, jfkthame@gmail.com, "public-i18n-bidi@w3.org" <public-i18n-bidi@w3.org>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, WWW International <www-international@w3.org>
>> Given that the same effect can be achieved for when one wants to prevent
>> joining by using :before + :after to insert ZWNJ, is a new property
really
>> necessary?

> If we can unambiguously document what constitutes a shaping break that's
> enough.  As far as we know Arabic is the only script affected, so it's a
bit
> hard to think in more general terms.  But then again, you can't really
> convince, say, a Wordpress theme developer to add :after=ZWNJ to "fix"
Arabic...

Arabic script definitely isn't the only one involved. Certainly add to that
the Indic scripts (because of virama) and even German (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-width_non-joiner).

Nevertheless, if we add to the CSS spec that positive
{padding|margin}-{left|right} has the effect of simulating a space at the
start or end of the element (depending on the element's direction), then the
vast majority of cases will just take care of themselves (since it is
highly unlikely that someone would turn a block element inline without
adding some sort of spacing).

>> As for letter-spacing, wouldn't it be a lot more useful if it joined the
>> letters with a longer line (tatweel-like), not leaving a space between
them?
> True.

Should we start a separate thread for that? Obviously, when I suggested it,
I meant it for Arabic script characters only. It then occurred to me that
this might also be useful for Indic scripts (to get a continuous bar at the
top despite letter spacing), but that appears to be definitely a bad idea;
see
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-indic/2013OctDec/0013.html


On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org> wrote:

> On 14-02-13 06:38 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin wrote:
> >> I'll go as far as saying that a new property might be in order.  For
> example,
> >> I can imagine, though not find in my references, that depending on
> taste, one
> >> may or may not want joining in a drop-cap in Arabic.
> >
> > Besides a value that prevents joining (i.e. puts a virtual ZWNJ at both
> ends)
> > and a value that does nothing, do you think that a value that forces
> joining
> > (i.e. puts ZWJ at both ends) is also useful / necessary?
>
> No.  And that's not what I was implying.
>
> > Given that the same effect can be achieved for when one wants to prevent
> > joining by using :before + :after to insert ZWNJ, is a new property
> really
> > necessary?
>
> If we can unambiguously document what constitutes a shaping break that's
> enough.  As far as we know Arabic is the only script affected, so it's a
> bit
> hard to think in more general terms.  But then again, you can't really
> convince, say, a Wordpress theme developer to add :after=ZWNJ to "fix"
> Arabic...
>
>
> >> I don't think padding / margins should be relevant at all.
>  Letter-spacing
> >> doesn't disable Arabic shaping.  Why should any other space do?
> >
> > Because padding and margin are used to separate logically separate
> pieces of
> > text. As for letter-spacing, wouldn't it be a lot more useful if it
> joined the
> > letters with a longer line (tatweel-like), not leaving a space between
> them?
>
> True.
>
> > And if the answer is no, then it is obviously for some very special
> > application when one really does want spaces between letters that should
> > normally be joined, and no lesson can be learned from letter-spacing for
> > padding and margin. I do realize that sometimes, mostly for educational
> > purposes, one wants letters that are normally joined to be displayed
> with a
> > space between them, but still shaped like they would be without the
> space, but
> > I think that this is a very rare use case, and it could be achieved by
> using
> > ZWJ when necessary..
>
> I've seen many Persian blogs just use a theme that had letterspacing for
> the
> title, and they seemed to be fine with it, or didn't know better.
>
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Behdad Esfahbod <behdad@behdad.org
> > <mailto:behdad@behdad.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 14-02-07 03:44 PM, fantasai wrote:
> >     >
> >     > The issue is (as the title says) whether Arabic letters connect
> between
> >     > elements with 'display: inline', for example in this case:
> >     >   <p>foo<span color="blue">bar</span>baz</p>
> >
> >     By default, they should, even if the spans use different fonts.
>  AFAIK no
> >     browser currently does this, but it's good to document and require
> it.
> >
> >     I'll go as far as saying that a new property might be in order.  For
> example,
> >     I can imagine, though not find in my references, that depending on
> taste, one
> >     may or may not want joining in a drop-cap in Arabic.
> >
> >     I don't think padding / margins should be relevant at all.
>  Letter-spacing
> >     doesn't disable Arabic shaping.  Why should any other space do?
> >
> >     As for what should by default disable shaping across boundaries, I
> don't know.
> >      Whatever initiates bidi:isolate is a good starting place indeed.
> >
> >     --
> >     behdad
> >     http://behdad.org/
> >
> >
>
> --
> behdad
> http://behdad.org/
>
Received on Monday, 17 February 2014 12:38:04 UTC

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