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[CSSWG] Minutes Telecon 2013-10-30

From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 21:26:08 -0400
Message-ID: <CADhPm3vT20xoq7W23UkSag+1vb-1Hf2GtPS3P0bs__wn3aJVmA@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-style@w3.org
New Working Group Members

  - Samsung has joined W3C and the Working Group.
  - Glazou will become a Samsung representative as co-chair in addition
         to two new members.

CSS Style Attributes

  - The group was reminded that the PR period ends tomorrow.

Syntax Level 3 LC

  - RESOLVED: Move Syntax Level 3 to Last Call
  - RESOLVED: Contact SVG, HTML, XML and internationalization with 6
         week comment period.

W3C Process Change

  - Szilles brought some of the proposed W3C process changes to the
         group and they would alter the CR and LC period by merging them
         into one step.
  - In general the working group responded positively to the changes and
         some time will be set aside at the F2F to discuss further.

Status of Jdaggett's Specs

  - With jdaggett no longer a part of the WG, the future of the specs he
         was contributing to was discussed.
  - ChrisL will lead Fonts through the test suite and comments process.
  - His contributions to Text and Writing Modes was also discussed with
         fantasai asking that people go over the layout and make

Counter Styles At Risk Features

  - RESOLVED: 'pad' and 'speak-as' are marked at risk


  - Bert stated that details on the location of the Sunday meeting space
         would be sent out as soon as they're set.
  - Everyone was reminded again to add topics to the Wiki.

New Charter

  - Glazou and Plinss have a list of current documents and are
         developing a list of expectations for each of those documents
         over the charter period.
  - They requested that the group send them comments on what documents
         should and shouldn't be included.
  - Items that are referenced by HTML5 were also discussed, especially
         Selectors 4 and Cascade 3.

Resource Priorities

  - ACTION: Everyone review Resource Priorities for discussion next

Next Week's Call

  - A few people expressed that they won't be at next week's call as
         they'll be traveling to TPAC.


  Bruno de Oliveira Abinader (IRC Only)
  Mihail-Alexandru Balan
  David Baron
  Renoir Boulanger
  Bert Bos
  Dave Cramer
  Justin Erenkrantz
  Elika Etemad
  Simon Fraser
  Sylvain Galineau
  Daniel Glazman
  Israel Hilerio
  Koji Ishii
  Dael Jackson
  Brian Kardell
  Brad Kemper
  Chris Lilley
  Peter Linss
  Edward O'Connor
  Anton Prowse
  Simon Sapin
  Dirk Schulze
  Alan Stearns
  Leif Arne Storset
  Lea Verou
  Steve Zilles

  Tab Atkins
  Adenilson Cavalcanti
  Simon Pieters
  Florian Rivoal

ScribeNick: dael

  glazou: Let's start
  glazou: First thing, any extra items?
  glazou: Okay, nothing.
  <ChrisL> agenda+ reminder that CSS Style Attrs is in Proposed Rec,
           review ends *tomorrow*

New Working Group Members

  glazou: You may have noticed Samsung joined the WG
  glazou: There's 3 of us that will be representing. W3C will reappoint
          me as co-chair on behalf of Samsung.
  glazou: However, it may take a few days because TPAC.

CSS Style Attributes

  glazou: PR for Style Attributes ends tomorrows.  We need reps to vote.
  glazou: Please remind them to do it today

  glazou: Is szilles on call?
  glazou: Not yet.

Syntax Level 3 LC

  glazou: SimonSapin may have been hit by the winter change.
  SimonSapin: Sorry.

  SimonSapin: Let me find the link
  <SimonSapin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013OctDec/0134.html
  SimonSapin: We had a few remaining issues in syntax
  SimonSapin: I think 2 are worth mentioning
  SimonSapin: The first that I edited the functioning of the referencing
              documents and attributes.
  SimonSapin: The spec chooses CSS and refers to style sheets as
              required to defined in the syntax.
  SimonSapin: Two of those go into their respective spec.
  SimonSapin: In particular in cascades it's defined. I don't know if we
              can move the definition without going out of CR.

  glazou: Since it's adding, probably not.
  fantasai: Is it adding or clarifying?
  SimonSapin: It's moving the definition, but it's one sentence.
  fantasai: It's probably okay as a errata.

  <ChrisL> Do you supply suggested text? If so I will check that SVG has
           that text.
  <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-at-import

  fantasai: Keep it in syntax and move into cascades
  ChrisL: It depends on if it's new.
  ChrisL: New is not doable in errata.
  SimonSapin: The definition is that the new topic is defined as style
  SimonSapin: It's not new, just moving

  ChrisL: Why do you need to move?
  SimonSapin: It was previously defined in reference to HTML, it should
              be in CSS.
  SimonSapin: We have 3 cases of style sheets being used by something
              else. HTML, XTML and CSS

  ChrisL: I understand
  ChrisL: We don't want something to go from CR to LC
  ChrisL: Have there been other changes that would prompt it going to
  dbaron: Can we move it from one thing to another once they're both CR?
  SimonSapin: If we can't it can stay for now

  * tantek is excited for the process updates
  * tantek plans on putting CSS3-UI through it ASAP
  * ChrisL is pretty bored by them too
  * sgalineau never expected he'd also say he's excited about process
  * tantek is tired of the LC-CR-LC dance loop
  * sgalineau tantek, yes, there is something to be said for 'last'
             meaning 'last'
  <tantek> there's no such thing as "last" in standards.
  <tantek> except :last :D
  * sgalineau in standards the last man standing never dies

  ChrisL: I'm trying to avoid the dance between CR and LC
  ChrisL: I'd rather leave as-is and fix it later.
  ChrisL: It's not changing implementation
  ChrisL: It's not making it cleaner or simpler
  ChrisL: Would be better to say future version should define and the
          definition should be thus.
  ChrisL: It's cleaner and everyone will know what it means.
  ChrisL: I don't want to see this add 4 weeks.

  ChrisL: On the other hand, the others are HTML
  ChrisL: Is there specific text we can add over and do we know HTML5 is
          adding the correct text?
  fantasai: I think we should leave until everything updated and then
  SimonSapin: I suspect HTML5 will have correct text
  <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-html
  ChrisL: If you have specific text, mail it to HTML5 WG
  <SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-xml
  ChrisL: Once it's in the right place, we can make sure to reference it
          to define it.

  SimonSapin: Is it just the XTML version that defines style sheets?
  ChrisL: Not, it all does.
  SimonSapin: Does it have way to include external?
  ChrisL: Yes, it does.

  SimonSapin: I have text for XTML.
  SimonSapin: I'l do HTML as well.
  glazou: Ok.

  SimonSapin: That's it for this issue.
  SimonSapin: Other issue is we had a proposal to generalize !important.
  SimonSapin: An idea to use that for custom properties.

  SimonSapin: I suggest to defer until we have something that would use
              the feature.
  SimonSapin: There's consensus to defer on ML
  <astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0677.html

  glazou: Other opinions?
  glazou: None. Let's defer for time being.

  SimonSapin: Then I'd like to ask for LC working draft.
  glazou: TabAtkins sent regrets and I think he said +1.
  glazou: Sorry, that was for Grid.
  SimonSapin: I talked with TabAtkins and he was fine with it.

  glazou: Other opinions? I'm in favor
  <sgalineau> no objection
  <Bert> ditto
  <bkardell> +1
  glazou: no objections?

  RESOLVED: Move Syntax to LC

  fantasai: We need a period and which groups to contact
  SimonSapin: This is a first time for me, don't know how time works.
  * sgalineau rolls the Last Call period dice

  glazou: We're under TPAC moratorium I think
  fantasai: I think we can publish before TPAC
  fantasai: But I'd recommend a longer period.
  fantasai: I'd suggest 6 weeks.
  fantasai: We need to contact HTML and SVG.
  glazou: XML too
  glazou: Other suggestions?

  fantasai: Should we contact internalization for encoding? I suspect
            getting annevk to review is fine.
  SimonSapin: I've been talking with him, I think he's fine, but I can
              ping him again
  krit: I can also take an action to review

  glazou: Let's do SVG, HTML, XML and internationalization with 6 weeks

  RESOLVED: Contact SVG, HTML, XML and internationalization with 6 week

  glazou: Bert, will you handle publishing?
  Bert: I can't do tomorrow, but Tuesday
  Bert: I can take it

W3C Process Change

  szilles: I wanted to give heads up that a new draft of chapter 7 has
           been sent to chairs at AC for LC comments
  szilles: This new draft is in response to issues raised by members of
           WGs, including members of CSS.
  <glazou> comments on chapter 7 requested before nov-27
  <ChrisL> its a good change, I like it

  szilles: Main change is get rid of LC and CR, and create a combination
  szilles: That has 2 implications:
  szilles: There's now an obligation to get wide review prior to the
  szilles: There's no particular LC draft, just a series of WD.
  szilles: Figuring out a way of document that process still needs to be
  szilles: Part of what is to go into status which indicates major
           changes in each WD.
  szilles: The one for wide review would say we're basically done.

  <fantasai> Putting anything into the Status section is almost like not
             putting it in at all...
  <SimonSapin> +1 fantasai

  szilles: 2nd implication is:
  szilles: We said the prefixes can be dropped in CR
  szilles: That's not a big deal but we need to think of what doing that
           in LCish events means
  <ChrisL> it sounds like we should drop prefixes when we move to the
           new LC-CR-PR stage

  szilles: Third question is that we will need to translate started
  szilles: It's not a good thing for what we've put in LC already,
  szilles: We need to know how to transition to this new process.
  szilles: The main change is going into that last step.
  szilles: The intent wasn't to shake things up, it was to make it
            possible to do more things in parallel.
  szilles: Get testing going on through life of spec.

  szilles: With that I can answer questions.

  * sgalineau thinks the status section contains much that is not status
              at all
  * fantasai agrees with sylvain

  ChrisL: Sounds like if we're keeping prefixes, we should drop at the
           new LC/CR stage.
  szilles: That would be my assumption
  glazou: Since vendors are moving away from prefixes,
  glazou: and using implementation preferences instead,
  glazou: Would this be valid in both vendors opinions?
  szilles: I think that's independent of either approach.
  glazou: But unfortunatly it doesn't always work like that

  * SimonSapin is it time to discuss the prefixing policy?
  * leaverou thought we weren't keeping prefixes :S
  * sgalineau it should be 1-3 lines. The rest could/should be at the
             bottom of the doc.
  * fantasai sgalineau +1
  * leaverou sgalineau++
  <ChrisL> KILL ALL THE PREFIXES!!!! get your pitchforks and torches
  * leaverou sgalineau: there was a spec redesign effort, fantasai was
             on it.
  * sgalineau -webkit-pitchfork: auto;
  * dbaron doesn't expect people will get the pitchforks and torches
           through airport security.
  * sgalineau leaverou, ah yes, I forgot about that. MUST MAKE IT
              HAPPEN. I guess we have the occasion.
  szilles: I'm not on IRC so I can't see comments
  [Comments are explained to szilles]

  glazou: Other questions or comments?

  szilles: I think it would be good to spend time at F2F to see what
           we'd do with drafts.
  glazou: It's a good F2F topic, but limit to an hour.
  szilles: I'd say a half hour.
  glazou: Fine.
  * ChrisL half an hour, so less than 30 seconds per spec.

  glazou: No more comments?
  glazou: Thanks Steve

Status of jdaggett's Specs

  * sgalineau will miss jdaggett :(
  glazou: I'd like ChrisL and Mozilla to talk about his specs
  dbaron: I believe fonts is in CR
  dbaron: So the next set of work is to get a test suite
  dbaron: I think that's...I'd like to try and do work on it at TTWF.
  dbaron: It'll have to be somewhat collaborative.
  dbaron: I don't think one person making a suite is good.

  glazou: Is anyone at Mozilla able to contribute?
  dbaron: I'm not in position to make commitments.
  krit: Anyone else on CSS Fonts?
  fantasai: No

  krit: Who would maintain Fonts comments?
  ChrisL: This is where I should step in.  I'm willing to be test suite
          leader and we should maintain disposition of comments and I'm
          willing to do that too.
  glazou: Thank you ChrisL

  glazou: This was Fonts
  glazou: What about the others?
  dbaron: What are the others?
  glazou: Text and Writing Modes, he was contributing a lot
  dbaron: I don't believe he was an editor.
  dbaron: There were a bunch of long running debates,
  dbaron: I'm not sure what the expectation you have is about those

  glazou: Mozilla's input was quite important. Is there anyone else to
          contribute to this debate?
  dbaron: Not right now
  krit: To clarify, contribute on ML?
  glazou: Yes
  glazou: These debates or any tech issue that could arrise.

  ChrisL: Do you think Jonathan Kew Would be a good person?
  dbaron: I think for Fonts that's true. Not so sure about Writing Modes

  glazou: What is writing modes debates status?
  fantasai: We just published a WD
  fantasai: We're waiting for Tr issue to be solved, that's all that's

  fantasai: The entire layout section needs work.
  fantasai: There's only so much progress I can make on my own.
  fantasai: My inclination is unless people want to review before LC, we
            should put it there unless we solve Tr issue.
  glazou: John said he was fine with any solution.

  ChrisL: There was a recent email from Koji with a new way of looking
          at it.
  fantasai: The issue is basically is if fallback is a must, should,
            may, or must not.
  * ChrisL thinks that covers all possible permutations, yes
  fantasai: We need to pick one, the spec currently says "may" which
            allows implementors to do either.
  glazou: We're not going to discuss this now.
  glazou: Let's hope we have enough to handle in a reasonable time

  fantasai: Does anyone here plan to review the layout?
  Bert: I'm reviewing it. I want to write it out for box model
  Bert: I want to find a way to discuss with you, will you be in China?
  fantasai: Yes
  Bert: Great, we can discuss. I think what you have is correct, I just
        need to clarify what you mean.
  fantasai: Will you be busy Thursday/Friday?
  bert: No, I don't have fixed appointments.
  fantasai: Maybe we and anyone else can go through spec.
  glazou: Bert, I remind you Friday is a holiday.
  Bert: I'll be working.

  glazou: Anything else?
  fantasai: So we'll wait until TPAC to deal with Tr.
  fantasai: If anyone else wants to go over layout and send comments,
            that would be good.
  fantasai: We'll hopefully do LC right after TPAC.

Counter Styles At Risk Features

  <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0708.html
  fantasai: I was suggesting to put pad and speak-as on at risk list,
  fantasai: Because pad is low priority and last minute.
  fantasai: Speak-as I don't want as risk, but we don't have many
  ChrisL: I think it's nice to have it at risk.
  ChrisL: It would be good to have, but we should mark it and be able to
          drop it quietly.

  glazou: Any objections?
  RESOLVED: pad and speak-as are marked at risk

  fantasai: I had TabAtkins start working on the comments. There's one
            we'll want to talk about with the WG.
  fantasai: It's about how numbers are handled in Hebrew, but I'll wait
            for TabAtkins.
  fantasai: Basically it's that Hebrew is limited in its range unless we
            add thousands-grouping feature, which we may want to

  * ChrisL two new reviews for CSS style attributes arrived during this
           call, thanks!

  glazou: I did get a real use case. A company wanted to use numbers in
  glazou: It's involving Gecko, but it's a real case.


  glazou: Bert, I see you have message about the Sunday room.
  Bert: We don't know which room, but there will be one.
  Bert: We should know by the end of the week; there will be a projector
        and network access.
  Bert: That's about all I can say, as soon as I know what room, someone
        will send out details.

  glazou: Please add item requests to the Wiki

New Charter

  glazou: I discussed new charter with plh.
  glazou: Bert has started a few topics.
  glazou: I sent out a list of current documents on the Charter.
  glazou: Some are old and need to be removed.

  glazou: Plh suggests that co-chairs come up with expectations for each
          item and submit those to the list.
  glazou: It lets us take a minimum of time with chartering and I think
          it's a good idea.
  glazou: I'd like all WG members to review the list I sent and make all
          the comments you want.
  glazou: Tell us if you want something added or removed.
  glazou: If the doc is a high priority for you and you want it to be
          into rec. during next charter, please tell us, it can be
  glazou: If you don't give input, plinss And I will work without your

  fantasai: Where was it sent?
  glazou: With the agenda.
  <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/att-0728/doclist.txt
  glazou: It's a list of all of our working documents.

  glazou: Plh sent me a list of a few docs that are normatively
          references from HTML5.
  glazou: 4 or 5 are listed as problematic from review by Robin Berjon
  glazou: 2 references are made to the old level of Selectors and Image
  glazou: It previously referenced level 3
  <bkardell> CSS Foo Module Level N is my favorite

  glazou: The others are HTML and CSSOM
  glazou: The other ones aren't a problem, I need to discuss with Bert
          and Robin to see if it's a high priority.
  fantasai: HTML should be referencing Selectors 4 and Cascade 3 for
            scoped styles.
  glazou: It's going to be a problem because they want to reference.
  chrisl: Either the browser implement and we'll move quickly or
          browsers don't implement and it'll be removed from HTML5.

  fantasai: I think it's reasonable to move selectors 4 to CR in next
            6-9 months.
  <krit> +1 to fantasai
  chrisl: Is there much difference between 3 and 4
  fantasai: Yeah, there's other things.
  fantasai: A lot if implemented now.
  chrisl: So it does seem reasonable to move forward.

  dbaron: Mozilla held on selectors because it didn't seem stable, but
          I'm not sure.

  glazou: Is 6 to 9 months okay for HTML5?
  chrisl: I'm not sure. I can find out. It also depends on the proposed
          rec. track change
  chrisl: However that's better than "we don't know"

  glazou: My wish list of high priority mods is the TTA, filtering/
          compositing/masking, Grid, Flex, Variables.
  glazou: That's what we want, but you can have a different view

  glazou: Any other questions?
  chrisl: I'd like to see Ruby moving faster, but depends on
  fantasai: It's drafted, it depends on review.

  glazou: I'll try, but please send comments ASAP
  glazou: I'll come up with list of future expectations so we can review
          during TPAC.

Resource Priorities

  glazou: Anything else to discuss?
  plinss: I have one
  plinss: A first working draft of Resource Priorities has a CSS
          property, which they didn't discuss with us.
  glazou: Do you have a link?
  <plinss> http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/

  plinss: There's nothing else we need to review now, but I need to chat
          about coordination.
  plinss: We should look because I found a few issues

  glazou: It's led by Microsoft and Google

  ACTION: Everyone review for discussion next week
  glazou: We'd like to have opinions so we can discuss at TPAC.

Next Week's Call

  plinss: I'll be traveling next week
  krit: Will others be available?
  * SimonSapin can join the call next week
  * Bert wil be there
  * sgalineau will be traveling next week
  chrisl: I'll be available
  * leaverou will be travelling next Wednesday too
  * dauwhe I'll be available
  dbaron: I'll be around
  glazou: So I'd suggest we still have a call next week

  stearns: I just want more feedback on Basic Shapes
  stearns: I have fantasai's and krit's opinions, but I'd like to hear
           from others.
  stearns: I want to hear from other people.
  glazou: Okay.
  glazou: Anything else?
  glazou: Okay, this is it. Thank you everyone. Talk to most of you next

[Meeting Ended]
Received on Thursday, 31 October 2013 01:26:36 UTC

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