W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > December 2012

[CSSWG] Minutes 2012-12-19

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 18:59:18 -0800
Message-ID: <50D91686.3080807@inkedblade.net>
To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Special thanks to Leif for preparing the summary~

Summary:

   - Sign up for Tucson F2F now, or risk not getting a hotel!
   - RESOLVED: Rossen Atanassov replaces Alex Mogilevsky and Phil Cupp
               as editor of Flexbox and Grid.
   - Discussed Flexbox interaction with multicol and writing mode
   - RESOLVED: Publish Working Draft of CSS Cascade Level 3 to replace
               the 7-year old one, mentioning dbaron's issues about
               scoping and defaults
   - RESOLVED: Spaces not optional around 'and', 'or' and 'not' in @supports
   - RESOLVED: Publish css3-text-decoration LC with intro from fantasai
   - RESOLVED: Daniel Glazman is our new liaison with EPUB
   - Discussed Animations issues: animation-play-state in shorthand;
     animations starting in descendant when no longer 'display: none';
     what counts as valid keyframes
   - RESOLVED: Put animation-play-state back into the animation shorthand,
               and let the shorthand reset it if not mentioned

====== Full minutes below ======

Present:
   Peter Linss
   Leif Arne Storset
   Simon Sapin
   Rebecca Hauck
   Edward O'Connor
   Alan Stearns
   John Jansen
   Steve Zilles
   Simon Fraser
   Anton Prowse
   Bert Bos
   Tab Atkins
   David Baron
   John Jansen
   Arron Eicholz
   Rossen Atanassov
   Alexis Menard
   Florian Rivoal
   Tantek Çelik

Scribe: Leif

Administrivia
-------------

   plinss: agenda additions? Did get note from sylvaing.
   dbaron: Did you see my comments on animations?
   <dbaron>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0268.html
   plinss: no
   dbaron: I replied to the minutes
   plinss: If we have time, otherwise defer to next time

   plinss: molly has been reminding people to sign up for Tucson on wiki
   plinss: still probably people missing. Sign up now! Or risk not having hotel
   plinss: She also sent a hotel booking number

   plinss: Microsoft asked for Rossen to take over editing from Alex and Phil
   plinss: for Grid and Flexbox
   plinss: no objections

   RESOLVED: Rossen new editor of Grid and Flexbox, taking over for Alex
             and Phil

Flexbox
-------

   plinss: We've been kicking a few issues down the curb.
   TabAtkins: Still not ready to talk about them.

   Rossen: the multiline issue?
   Rossen: basically two issues
   Rossen: reposted a couple of days ago
           http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0251.html
   Rossen: has to do with what do we consider orthogonal
   Rossen: Will vertical writing mode treat flexbox as vertical
   <dbaron> are we now discussing the issue that TabAtkins said he wasn't
            ready to discuss?
   <TabAtkins> Yes.

   Rossen: I don't see why we shouldn't allow multicol with a horizontal
           writing mode behave like a vertical writing mode with
           flex-flow: row
   TabAtkins: This is very similar to something in multicol, we were able
              to come up with something that often gives ok results
   TabAtkins: willing to look into something similar here
   Rossen: Are you talking about the algorithm you gave to fantasai to
           resolve auto-width columns
   TabAtkins: No, something recent a mozilla dev brought up to make
              multicol and flexbox work consistently
   <dbaron> (Daniel Holbert)
   TabAtkins: We worked on the multicol sizing algorithm so would respond
              better to wrapping in a flexbox, could do something similar
              for flexbox in flexbox
   TabAtkins: current naive solution doesn't always give good results
   TabAtkins: not ready to discuss just yet
   TabAtkins: Just need time and energy to think about this
   <Rossen>  http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2022
   Rossen: I can give the test case
   plinss: Defer then

Publish update to css3-cascade
------------------------------

   TabAtkins: See summary e-mail
   <TabAtkins>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0199.html

   dbaron: Raised a bunch of issues yesterday
   dbaron: Might be worth getting it a little more stable
   TabAtkins: Can we not just address them quickly in LC?
   dbaron: We should be mostly alright

   dbaron: In your reply you said that scoping for !important and scope
           goes backwards through the scopes rather than forward
   dbaron: that seems backwards to me, and I didn't see it in the spec
   TabAtkins: In the paragraph before we talk about the style attribute,
              to match the behavior of non-!important origins go UA-author
              rather than author-UA
   TabAtkins: Scoping is kind of like nested origin, so should probably
              do the same thing
   TabAtkins: Should override any contained scope
   dbaron: Not sure that the rationale for the backwards thing for
           UA-user-author still holds
   TabAtkins: I am surprised by that position, but not saying it's wrong.

   plinss: But is there an objection to publishing WD?
   dbaron: I'm ok with publishing as long as we note the defaults thing
           as an issue
   <dbaron> default issue:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0270.html
   dbaron: and maybe note the scope thing as an issue
   <dbaron> the scoping issue is the issue of whether !important should
            go in reverse for scopes
   TabAtkins: Fine with that
   TabAtkins: just want to get a new WD out, last is 7 years old
   TabAtkins: people talk about TR version

   RESOLVED: Publish Cascade WD with issues dbaron mentioned (scoping and
             defaults)

Conditional syntax
------------------

   <plinss>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0100.html
   <plinss>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0142.html
   dbaron: Before we get into details, we should discuss whether we want to
           make the change
   dbaron: that's more important
   TabAtkins: neutral. Understand the authoring hazards. But should make
              the change not just for @supports, but other boolean things,
              like Media Queries
   TabAtkins: a global change
   dbaron: I'm inclined to defer, because I haven't thought about the details
   SimonSapin: We should also fix MQ, but not sure about compat
   dbaron: Shouldn't be compat problem
   dbaron: unless there's broken content out there that doesn't work now
   dbaron: but pretty rare
   dbaron: Worry is it might be bigger than just those two, but probably not

   SimonSapin: I would prefer making this change everywhere
   SimonSapin: but another solution is to require spaces in the grammar
   plinss: Any thoughts?
   TabAtkins: Is SimonSapin's intent to avoid people typing spaces wrong
              from reading the spec?
   dbaron: When suggesting requiring spaces, I meant also requiring a
           space on both sides of "and' and 'or'
   SimonSapin: Consistency is good
   TabAtkins: no problem with it
   dbaron: Preference is requiring spaces after 'not' and on both sides
           of 'and' and 'or'
   <dbaron> that's a weak preference, though
   Bert: Agree with dbaron, but no strong opinion yet
   SimonSapin: Requiring spaces is an easy solution, but a better solution
               is to fix the grammar
   <SimonSapin> spaces: easy solution; no spaces: better for authors

   plinss: Requiring spaces allows us to introduce a 'not' function later
   plinss: doesn't require learning the difference between function tokens
           and other things
   dbaron: Don't want to introduce a not function later that's something
           different
   plinss: If we never introduce a not function then spacing is optional
   TabAtkins: Not willing to say never introduce a 'not' function
   sylvaing: From the calc experience, requiring spaces where people don't
             expect them is painful
   sylvaing: they will learn, for sure
   dbaron: Words and symbols are different, though
   SimonSapin: Remember that if we require spaces, anything invalid
               evaluates to false, and can later be negated
   TabAtkins: Caught by the general invalid syntax
   plinss: Consensus?

   dbaron: I'll figure the wording out. It's an editorial question
   <SimonSapin> S* → S+ ?
   <dbaron> SimonSapin, yeah, mostly, but there might need to be prose
            too... I'll need to check

   RESOLVED: Spaces not optional in @supports

Text-decoration LC
------------------

   plinss: fantasai will write intro
   SteveZ: No objection, but strange to send to LC a document that's not
           done yet
   plinss: Just has to write intro, wants resolution early because of
           holidays
   SteveZ: I understand, but is it really not going to get published
   plinss: dunno, but Bert will be away
   Bert: Will be away until 8 Jan
   TabAtkins: fantasai will be back at the end of the week, but no
              meeting for 2 weeks

   RESOLVED: Publish css3-text-decoration LC with intro from fantasai

EPUB liaison
------------

   plinss: glazou is willing to
   sylvaing: He seems to be in a good spot to do that
   sylvaing: because he implements EPUB
   plinss: I'm trying to get HP to join

   RESOLVED: glazou liaison to EPUB

CSS3 Color Errata
-----------------

   dbaron: Just added a test, needs review
   dbaron: added errata in ED
   TabAtkins: Thanks, we've been waiting for that
   dbaron: Plan to raise an issue on the errata, but that's for later

Background-clip and origin order on shorthand
---------------------------------------------

   plinss: krit brought it up, but not here today
   plinss: Can anyone else talk about this?
   plinss: Defer this one

Case insensitivity
------------------

   TabAtkins: 3 specs waiting for that, and fantasai and dbaron have comments
   <dbaron> the most recent thread was
            http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/thread.html#msg239
   dbaron: Can you state the issue?
   TabAtkins: trying to, but can't right now
   TabAtkins: let's do animations

Animations
----------

   <plinss>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0268.html
   dbaron: In some cases I had trouble understanding what the resolution was
   dbaron: but also some other things should be decided
   dbaron: Simplest thing is animation-play-state not being in the shorthand
   dbaron: on purpose
   dbaron: Does that mean not specifiable in the shorthand, but it doesn't
           reset it, or does the shorthand reset it?
   TabAtkins: I believe the former
   <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showbug.cgi?id=14787
   TabAtkins: not specifiable, BUT reset by shorthand
   dbaron: sylvaing and smfr agree?

   smfr: I think the example of the shorthand, not including the property,
         could be surprising
   dbaron: There are examples of that
   dbaron: background does it
   dbaron: font
   <dbaron> border resets border-image
   TabAtkins: I think so, unless we made it more complicated
   plinss: Not an unreasonable behavior, there's precedent
   plinss: using a shorthand should reset everything in that type of property

   smfr: Since this is a new spec and fairly complicated stuff, we should
         go for least surprise
   smfr: not including play-state in the shorthand
   dbaron: You're taking back last week's resolution
   smfr: yeah, we didn't consider the resetting problem

   plinss: What was the problem of having it in the shorthand?
   TabAtkins: Ambiguity with animation-name
   dbaron: like everything!
   TabAtkins: How are we not ambiguous with the others?
   dbaron: Lots of fun, spec doesn't get into it, requires a lot of care
           with serialization and parsing
   dbaron: thread 6 months ago
   TabAtkins: I see, There's a note in here, probably improperly worded
   TabAtkins: The first ident that appears is the animation-name
   dbaron: wait, that's the opposite of what I expect
   TabAtkins: The first time value is duration, the second delay
   TabAtkins: [missed]
   dbaron: Would not be web-compatible, I suspect
   TabAtkins: in that case, spec is underdefined

   TabAtkins: issue 3 about this
   dbaron: Let's get back to earlier issue
   dbaron: smfr says we should scratch last week's resolution
   TabAtkins: agrees
   dbaron: I'm fine with that.
   dbaron: Given the 3 options, fine with 2 options where shorthand resets
           play-state

   sylvaing: I think it's the more consistent option
   sylvaing: but trying to think of compat issues
   dbaron: Gecko always implemented it
   dbaron: have not heard of compat issues
   sylvaing: But it's only working there
   sylvaing: now if we change the spec and other browsers support it…
   smfr: I don't think including play-state in the shorthand would cause
         WebKit problems, because prefixed
   florian: still large usage of unprefixed version

   dbaron: Take back comment about Gecko… I followed the spec
   sylvaing: In retrospect that should have been the definition, but with
             unprefixing, awkward to change
   smfr: play-state is not used much in the wild
   sylvaing: Our browser sticks around a bit longer than the average
   sylvaing: it will be invalid in IE 10, but not a huge risk at this stage
   sylvaing: seems silly to not have it there
   sylvaing: Will open a bug and fix the spec

   RESOLVED: Put play-state back into the animation shorthand

   dbaron: There was a resolution about animation starting when not
           display: none
   dbaron: two problems:
   dbaron: Also applies to ancestor with display: none
   TabAtkins: animation of child starts when ancestor gets box
   sylvaing: I'll have to check what I put in there.
   dbaron: I was just reading minutes, not the spec, so may be in there
   sylvaing reads from spec
   florian: should cover what dbaron said
   dbaron: Spec is right
   dbaron: Prose answered both of my issues

   dbaron: third issue is hardest
   dbaron: A resolution says animations only run with one at least one
           valid keyframe
   dbaron: It would make sense to solve a different issue first
   dbaron: and make this issue's solution match that one
   dbaron: And that is what happens when some values in keyframes cannot
           be interpolated
   TabAtkins: Doesn't exist anymore
   TabAtkins: all values are interpolatable
   dbaron: Also in level 3?
   TabAtkins: Dunno, thought to do it quickly

   dbaron: Even so, does a valid keyframe, mean something with a valid
           keyframe selector, or that and a property inside?
   sylvaing: Could be empty
   dbaron: Reason I think it should have property is that keyframes get
           examined separately for any property
   dbaron: 25% keyframe mentioned top, and 100% mentions left
   dbaron: you animate props, and those props may be present in keyframes
   dbaron: Depends on whether animation is animating any props.
   <TabAtkins> @keyframes { 50% {} }
   TabAtkins summarizes what dbaron said and scribe couldn't hear:
             keyframes rule with valid keyframes but no property in it
   TabAtkins: if you have that, would it be invalid
   <TabAtkins> @keyframes foo { 50% {} }

   sylvaing: If you mean does it fire animation if there's a duration on it
   sylvaing: we don't ignore it, it's valid
   sylvaing: even if nothing moves, I expect my events to fire
   sylvaing: even if you have props in there
   TabAtkins: How does that jive with not firing events?
   <TabAtkins> @keyframes foo {}
   TabAtkins: this and the previous one looks the same to me.
   sylvaing: good point
   sylvaing: we can't just look at the keyframes
   TabAtkins: Are you objecting to what we agreed last week?
   sylvaing: yes
   sylvaing: regardless of duration, if no props require animation, should
             we fire
   sylvaing: My question is more: does animation run if it has duration
             or has property in it
   <tantek> is there new information?
   TabAtkins: Last week we agreed "prop"
   sylvaing: we can do the same here
   TabAtkins: Yes, for the same reason as last week
   sylvaing: Not sure last week's was valid

   florian: So what does it mean for dbaron's issus?
   dbaron: This is the primary issue
   smfr: keyframe sets without properties inside, never seen that in the
         wild
   TabAtkins: Motivation seems to be filling with script
   florian: A use case would be an online animation editor
   florian: starts an animation in a loop
   florian: wants it to run even if it doesn't do anything
   florian: before you start adding stuff in it, want events
   florian: So may be worth firing events
   florian: duration could be enough

   plinss: Not sure we have a solid answer
   plinss: Defer to next year?
   dbaron: Probably best
   plinss: Enjoy your time off

   Meeting closed.
Received on Tuesday, 25 December 2012 02:59:47 GMT

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