W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > December 2012

Re: Initial values for widows and orphans

From: Gérard Talbot <www-style@gtalbot.org>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 19:40:49 -0500
Message-ID: <5dd1cbad154dc5e1efae6bf194a6f391.squirrel@ed-sh-cp3.entirelydigital.com>
To: "Dean Jackson" <dino@apple.com>
Cc: "www-style mailing list" <www-style@w3.org>

Le Mer 12 décembre 2012 18:56, Dean Jackson a écrit :
>
> On 13/12/2012, at 10:21 AM, Gérard Talbot <www-style@gtalbot.org> wrote:
>
>> I do not understand why Webkit can not implement orphans and widows
>> according to CSS2.1 specification.
>>
>> I do not understand why you say that it would break existing content.
>
> Because these properties have implied behaviour on content, even when
> they were never specified by the author. Now, after years, our
> implementation
> turns them on and things change. I doubt any author will understand
> why.

Dean,

I'm sorry...  I still do not understand the issue here.

"
The 'orphans' property specifies the minimum number of lines in a block
container that must be left at the bottom of a page. The 'widows' property
specifies the minimum number of lines in a block container that must be
left at the top of a page.
"
13.3.2 Breaks inside elements: 'orphans', 'widows'
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/page.html#break-inside

'orphans' and 'widows' only applies to page media. And will involve only a
modest fraction (a minority) of pages that will be printed or in print
preview. So, how and why implementing 'orphans' and 'widows' to a default,
initial value of 2 will effectively break content? and how often would
this happen? and how much "damage" (like bug reports with complaints) or
"break-the-web" would that do web authors?

> Whether or not it is a positive change is important, but not really
> our decision to make.

I've read your above sentence many times and still am not sure I
understand it.

Whenever/anytime a browser supports and implements W3C web standards (or
increases its support and compliance) is a good news in my opinion for all
web authors, web authoring tools and for the web in general.

Gérard

>
>>
>> If webkit does not implement orphans and widows with a default, initial
>> value of 2, then it will break web-standards-compliant content,
>> web-interoperability and cross-browser-compatibility. Now and later.
>
> That's why I sent the email - so we could discuss the issue.
>
>> Regarding "to not break existing content", I am convinced that a very
>> wide
>> majority of existing web content do not use, do not declare 'widows' and
>> 'orphans'.
>
> Yes, that's exactly my point! If they did use and declare these
> properties,
> we obviously wouldn't be breaking them. That's the way CSS works.
>
> Dean
>
>


-- 
CSS 2.1 Test suite RC6, March 23rd 2011
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Received on Thursday, 13 December 2012 00:41:23 GMT

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