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Re: [css3-lists] Published as WD!

From: Brad Kemper <brad.kemper@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:45:16 -0700
Cc: www-style list <www-style@w3.org>
Message-Id: <64D8F4C5-7DBF-4A5D-B9E0-4A9D8F45A82F@gmail.com>
To: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Overall, I like where it's going. I've started giving it a more thorough read, and here are my thoughts so far on the new bits:


On May 24, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote:

> 1. Split the 'outside' value for list-style-position into two values,
> 'outside' and 'hanging', reflecting the two classes of outside
> positioning that browsers actually do (Webkit and IE's behavior is
> close to the new 'outside', while Firefox and Opera are close to the
> new 'hanging').  'hanging' attaches the marker to the outside of the
> text, while 'outside' attaches it to the box, and makes it draw some
> things (like 'direction') from the parent element.

 Is there any author benefit to this difference? If not, we should just pick one and let the inconsistent UAs converge on one behavior, and call it 'outside'. So far, the differences seem rather esoteric to me. 

 If you are going to say that the marker is absolutely positioned, then you should say that the containing block for it is NOT established by the nearest positioned ancestor. As I understand it, the containing block is the list item's parent for 'outside' (which seems weird, as I would have expected it to be the list item itself), and for 'hanging' is the first descendant with text or significant white space. Am I reading that right?

 There is a note next to the description of 'outside' that says the Marker section has more to say about it. But that section doesn't seem to say anything specific about outside vs. hanging. Maybe that note could be worded less vaguely, or maybe it applies to 'hanging' also. 

 That section (6.0) seems to be mostly about giving examples to illustrate that all CSS properties, including width, text-align, padding, etc. apply to the ::marker. But the examples are not styled as examples (with the beige box, etc.). It seems like they should be. Also the sentence "Just like other generated content, markers generate a box when they're created, which has margins, border, padding, and everything else a box normally has" seems more conversational than precise. I would change it to, "Just like other generated content, markers generate a box when they're created, which can be styled with the full range of properties and values." Or something like that. If there are some properties that don't apply to ::marker, then they need to be called out, somewhere.

 Back to absolute positioning: Is 'the marker's "end" edge is placed against the "start" edge of the list item's parent' equivalent to 'right:100%' in LTR text? If I have '::marker { right:10px; }' or '::marker { right:auto; }' or '::marker { left:10px; }' would any of that change, and how? And assuming '::marker { top:auto; bottom:auto; }', does anything change if I set top or bottom to something else?


> 2. You can now specify a string as the value to 'list-style-type' to
> use that as the list marker.

Cool.

> 
> 3. The 'inline' value for 'list-style-type' was added, alongside the
> new (well, repurposed) 'marker' value for 'display'.  Using these in
> concert makes the first element with display:marker use its text
> contents as the marker value.  This is useful for documents where the
> list marker is a vital part of the content, and so must be included
> inline to ensure that it is displayed properly even when CSS is
> missing.


I like the idea, but I think it is backwards. The way you have it, the 'display' property has this one value that pushes the content into a marker, but only under very limited circumstances, and with a fallback that might not always be appropriate. I think instead, the ::marker should pull the content into its 'content' property (something like 'content:select-first-within(.myMarkers)'), where it can be combined with other images and text if desired, and where it can have its own 'display' properties set to whatever (maybe to 'table-cell' with some height and border and padding and background, for example), and where there is not the idea of candidates. Pulling it into ::marker would mean that it would only be styled there and by inheritance, and not by anything that selected it before it was pulled. Thus avoiding confusion like this:

li .myMarker { display: marker; color:red; }
li::marker { display: block; color:green; }

I want ::marker to be what sets the properties, without having to override the other selectors or use !important.
Received on Thursday, 26 May 2011 17:45:50 GMT

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