- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:11:08 -0400
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
- Considering last week of July for F2F in Seattle
- There will be some kind of internal W3C telecon about Unicode normalization
- RESOLVED: use idents for flow names in CSS Regions
- Disagreement on whether CSS Regions should use the 'content' property
or have separate 'flow-from' property that overloads 'content: normal'.
- RESOLVED: Content selection is a UI issue, not in css3-regions
- RESOLVED: No change to event propagation model due to regions
- RESOLVED: Publish update of CSS Ruby once outstanding edits are folded in
- ACTION everyone: Review CSS3 Writing Modes and report any issues that
should be addressed before LCWD is published.
====== Full minutes below ======
Present:
César Acebal
David Baron
John Daggett
Arron Eicholz
Elika Etemad
Daniel Glazman
Vincent Hardy
Koji Ishii
John Jansen
Brad Kemper
Hĺkon Wium Lie
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
Alex Mogilevsky
Edward O'Connor
David Singer
Alan Stearns
Daniel Weck
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/15-css-irc
Scribe: fantasai
Administrative
--------------
glazou: New agenda items: CSS3 Lists from Tab, item from Alex on CSS3 Regions
jdaggett: August F2F
sylvaing: Normalization and Namespaces
sylvaing: Charter schedule
Vincent: Review agreements on CSS Regions
Vincent: Chris asked to talk about FX charter
F2F Scheduling
--------------
glazou: Already in June, so we need to decide about that quickly.
glazou: First, where?
Vincent: I'd suggested Seattle following the SVGWG meeting
Vincent: So we can have a day overlapping with SVGWG
<ChrisL> svg is 25-29
Vincent: That's week of July 25th
jdaggett: So you're suggesting week after that?
Vincent: Yes
Vincent: The week of August 1st
glazou: I can't
<ChrisL> I can't do week of Aug 1 either
Steve: Could also do earlier
<ChrisL> Before is much easier for me
<ChrisL> overlap is not so great for me
glazou: Could meet at the same time
?: Some ppl are in both groups
glazou: So first suggestion is 29-31st of July?
Vincent: 28-29
Vincent: Have one day of conflict
<glazou> 28-30
sylvaing: Or we could be before with no overlap
sylvaing: Overlap is interesting model, but weird if there are ppl in both.
sylvaing: Ppl interested can just stay an extra day
<ChrisL> vincent and tab and I are in both
<dsinger_> Svg is 25-29 inclusive?
Vincent is coming back on the 24th
John: The weekend before will be pretty crazy
John: It's Blue Angels and they'll close I-90
<Zakim> +bradk; got it
<dsinger_> The week before is mpeg Torino...
fantasai: Seems a bit too early, given we want to span gap between June
and November, and this is in July
glazou: Yeah, probably too early. Not enough agenda items.
sylvaing: Reason for another meeting is we have a lot of work, so not
worried about that.
dbaron: I do think we want a little more of a gap though
September is bad for jdaggett and someone else
glazou can't do August at all
Steve can't do most of August
Steve: I could do just before Labor Day, i.e. late august
howcome can't do late august
Steve: So the advantage of the July dates are they don't seem to have
conflict, except for Blue Angels
<smfr> the blue angels are a troupe of display jet planes
<dsinger> The navy's flying aerobatics team
<plinss> http://www.blueangels.navy.mil/
sylvaing explains the problem with the Blue Angels and the closing of the
bridges over the lake
howcome suggests meeting on the East Coast
glazou suggests meeting in Europe
glazou: We're in Santa Clara for TPAC anyway
glazou: It seems August is not practical for many people
glazou: Only possibility is the end of the last week of July
<alexmog1> late july-august is best weather in seattle
jdaggett: Are there people with explicit conflicts?
glazou: I need to be back in Europe on the 31st of July
glazou: back to 28-29-30 of July
ChrisL: That's 2 days of overlap with SVG
discussion of conflicts
-> offline
CSS Namespaces
--------------
ChrisL: Discussed internally this week, and I pointed out how unfair it was
when CSS was being penalized wrt this when it applies to everything
ChrisL: So in the end what we decided was it would be good to have a short
meeting with a few people
ChrisL: Me, Ishida, one of the chairs, Addison Philips
ChrisL: To discuss the issues
ChrisL: and get i18n to withdraw on that point
fantasai: What about dbaron's suggestion?
ChrisL: ....
<dbaron> (though it's hard to be know that *that* won't have performance
implications without trying it)
ChrisL: It's okay to make it the author's responsibility
ChrisL: I'll set up a meeting next week sometime
ChrisL: I think authoring in early normalization is better
fantasai clarifies what dbaron's proposal actually was, i.e. normalizing
at decoding time
glazou: Most stylesheet authors and Web authors don't know what normalization
means
sylvaing: They shouldn't have to know about it
glazou: This already harms FTP clients due to filesystem naming issues
glazou: Even if we add content normalization only we still need to add tests
glazou: There are 2 different late normalizations -- parse time and
comparison time
sylvaing: Either way the specs are held up ?
glazou: I'm pushing for another solution. I'm pushing to release CSS
Namespaces now
glazou: And then have a separate spec dealing with normalization
sylvaing: It sounds like it's a Web platform issue, no reason to hold up
this spec as opposed to others
glazou: So Chris, we're waiting for invitation and possible times
sylvaing: Are we waiting for specs or waiting for that meeting?
* fantasai thinks dbaron's solution makes the most sense of everything
said so far
CSS Regions
-----------
strings vs identifiers
Alex: we had discussed at the F2F that strings were better than identifiers,
but wasn't clear how this was the resolution
fantasai: There was no official resolution in the minutes
Alex: We have something similar with counters, and it seems to work okay
for counters. Is there a reason to come up with something different
for regions or can we use the same solution?
smfr: We use idents in animations, too
glazou: Yes, we usually use idents for this case
glazou: Also I don't like allowing spaces in names
* ChrisL ideographic space is your friend :)
Alex: With strings you'd have to say whether null string is a flow, whether
? is a flow, etc.
glazou: Is there any reason why you need a string, Vincent?
Vincent: No, that was just where the discussion landed at the F2F.
Vincent: plinss was in favor of strings
plinss: We have many cases where we use idents here
plinss: But we've also had cases where we've painted ourselves into a corner.
It's safer to have a different syntax for user-named things, and
strings are a good way to do that.
fantasai: where have we painted ourselves in a corner before?
plinss: font names
fantasai: Those are not CSS-internal identifiers
plinss: Still have the problem that we can't ever add another keyword to
those property names because you'll have conflicts
plinss: If you want to add a keyword, you have to define it now and we're
stuck with that set forever
glazou: or you can use a functional notation
plinss: that was proposed, too, but kindof cumbersome
Alex: idents are the easiest to use, ..., and we don't have a really good
reason to not use idents
plinss: We explicitly didn't resolve on this at the F2F
plinss: we were just tossing ideas around, so I don't really care one way
or the other
plinss: I don't like inconsistency with other properties, but I also don't
like the extensibility problem
glazou: Do we need to resolve on this now, or can we add a note to the
document and resolve later?
Steve: Make a decision as to how the text should be written now
John: I'd rather make the decision now.
glazou: Ok, straw poll
<dsinger> we can surely reserve names/idents of a specific form for CSS use
(i.e. user region names cannot start with 'CSS')
glazou: Two options: 1. String 2. Identifier
JohnJansen: ident
glazou: ident
plinss: strings
Arron: ident
Alex: ident
sylvaing: ident
Vincent: abstain
Chris: abstain
Stearns: strings
jdaggett: ident
howcome: I'd like to hear what Bert thinks
Steve: don't care
César: abstain
dbaron: ident
smfr: ident
Koji: abstain
Brad: abstain
hober: ident
dweck: ident
dsinger: defer to simon
fantasai: ident
glazou: I think identifiers clearly win here
11 for ident, 2 for strings
RESOLVED: use idents for flow names
<vhardy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jun/0336.html
Vincent: These were my notes on the meeting, wanted to confirm
Vincent: First item was to have flow-into and flow-from properties,
which is different from the current draft
Vincent: Wanted to confirm if I should make that change
fantasai: Why can't we use content property?
Vincent: plinss wanted a separate property
fantasai: If you specify both flow-from and content property, which one wins?
plinss: content property overrides, you can use the contents keyword
to get the normal content
fantasai: so flow-from affects calculation of 'normal'?
<stearns> I'm concerned with how 'normal' is getting overloaded
Alex: You can also use flow-from: none to get normal content
Alex: I like how flow overrides content property, much easier to handle.
Otherwise have to look at two properties .. order
fantasai: I'm concerned about the cascade implications
fantasai: What's the benefit of having two properties? I see a lot of
reasons to use content and /not/ two properties. I don't see
the benefit of a new property.
plinss: I like having separate properties because to me they are separate
concepts
glazou: Taking this discussion offline
Vincent: Agreed that content selection was a UI issue, not mentioned in spec
RESOLVED: Content selection is a UI issue, not in css3-regions
Vincent: discussed whether event propagation model should be model,
agreement that it should not be changed
RESOLVED: No change to event propagation model due to regions
Vincent: next one was to make section on DOM events model informative
Vincent: I think that's a simple one
Vincent: Next one was on CSSOM View
Vincent: Confirmed that the current proposal was good
Vincent: Agreed to add event on changes to regionOverflow and flowRanges
No objections
Vincent: I also had an action item to ...
ACTION Vincent: Regions spec. editors to specify a model for breaking
flow content across areas that accounts for regions,
columns and pages. Build on paged media and propose behavior
for nested flows breaks.
<trackbot> Created ACTION-330
Publishing Specs
----------------
CSS Exclusions
glazou: Going to have a call with Vincent on that on Friday
Vincent: Since Alex will be editor, I'll sync up with him
Topic: CSS3 Images
fantasai: discussion on gradient keywords needs to either revert or settle
glazou: please review the DOM ? Events linked from the wiki for next week
Topic: CSS3 Ruby
fantasai: basically, I think we should publish with those edits I mentioned
fantasai's message:
We really need to pull the css3-ruby spec from CR, so I was wondering if we could
get a WG resolution to publish an updated WD providing that
1. All of the marked edits are actually folded into the draft instead of marked
as changes. (They're mostly editorial, obviously correct, and distract from
the actual issues.)
2. The 'bopomofo'/'right' value is renamed 'inter-character' per WG resolution
http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2011/03/15/resolutions_152
Then hopefully Richard can find the time to make these edits and push the updates
Koji: Can we use display: none to make the old text go away?
fantasai: Why would we do that? We should just update the text.
RESOLVED: Publish update of CSS Ruby with changes mentioned above.
glazou: Tab asked to publish CSS3 Lists, defer to next week
Charter
-------
ChrisL: CSSWG and SVGWG charters talk about FX charter, but say
different things
ChrisL: We should make sure the charters align on the deliverables etc.
ChrisL: SVGWG draft charter was published, and the SVGWG charter was extended
ChrisL says something about a temporary charter extension
ChrisL: So let's discuss the FX task force stuff soon
CSS3 Conditional Rules
----------------------
dbaron: Close to FPWD, but not quite there yet
dbaron: I discussed what it was at the F2F
dbaron resummarizes
<dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-conditional/
glazou: I've shown your document to a few web authors, and they are really excited
CSS3 Writing Modes
------------------
fantasai: I would like to publish LCWD of CSS3 Writing Modes next week
to get wider review, so if anyone has issues they want addressed
before LC publication they should report them this week.
ACTION everyone: Review css3-writing-modes and report any issues that
should be addressed before LC
Received on Wednesday, 15 June 2011 22:11:34 UTC