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Re: [css3-lists] Remaining feedback on the module

From: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:47:07 -0700
Message-ID: <BANLkTinhGg1dZDBNsPmUXuT6VLxbkwcH-g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Cc: www-style list <www-style@w3.org>, WWW International <www-international@w3.org>, "public-i18n-core@w3.org" <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp> wrote:
>> > ** 4.3.4. The Japanese "spoken-out" counter styles
>> > http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#japanese-counter-styles
>> >
>> > * Digit 0 is U+3007, not U+96F6 for both "japanese-informal" and "japanese-financial".
>>
>> I've had specific feedback from another Japanese speaker (from my
>> team) that U+96F6 is more appropriate for both of those.  I'll just
>> mark it as an issue for now.
>
> I understand that. I had a discussion about this in Japanese W3C ML in January[1], and people split for zero. Zero has two usage: 1) to represent "0", and 2) to represent a decimal (like "0.5".) Other cases do not exist because we remove all "0" in rule 5.
>
> There are two reasons I chose U+3007 for digit 0:
> * Both U+96F6 and U+3007 are correct for "0", but using U+96F6 for a decimal is wrong.
> * OOXML/ODF use U+3007.
> Can you talk this to him and see what he thinks?

Well, counter styles are never used to represent decimals - you're
always only mapping integers to styles - so we don't really need to
consider that.

That said, the fact that OOXML and ODF use U+3007 makes me want to
switch it over.


>> > * Are we dropping "cjk-ideographic" which was in CSS 2.0?
>> It would be ideal if the value
>> can map to "*-informal" depending on language tag.
>>
>> Yes; the only purpose of that type seemed to be to host the cjk
>> algorithm.  Since the three languages all actually have slightly
>> *different* algorithms, it didn't make sense to keep it.
>
> Thanks, I'll take this to Japanese ML, as both Mozilla and WebKit have implemented this value, although I'm not sure if they're interoperable or used widely.

Fantasai informs me that 'cjk-ideographic' was defined in CSS2, so I
shouldn't drop it.  >_<  I'll just map it to chinese-informal or
something.


>> > * I can't find CJK predefined counter styles in this section. Is this because you haven't
>> determined how to define the "type" property for these styles? I think we have to add
>> values like "chinese" or "japenese" here because their algorithms are different. I
>> understand some people do not like scripts/language names appearing as value names,
>> but I don't know what else options we have. Other possibilities I can think of are:
>> > - "cjk-japanese", "cjk-simp-chinese", etc.: no differences?
>> > - make the value name descriptive for each algorithm, like
>> "cjk-remove-all-zero-and...": I think this is preferred method in CSS, but I don't know if
>> we can come up with good names in this way.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean.  The "spoken-out" styles are explicitly
>> defined in sections 4.3.3, 4.3.4, and 4.3.5.  Then there are more
>> styles defined in Appendix A, for the ones that can be expressed in
>> terms of the common algorithms.
>>
>> If I'm missing any that you consider important, just let me know and
>> I'll be glad to add them.
>>
>> Regarding naming, I'm open to better names.  The current names are
>> mostly just what was already in the spec; I've changed a few, but I'm
>> definitely not attached to any of the names.
>
> Ah, ok, so if I understand correctly, "japanese-informal" for instance is a predefined counter style that cannot be expressed by @counter-style rule, correct? I thought all predefined styles can be expressed by @counter-style rule and they're in Appendix A.

Yes, correct.  There are 4 or 5 subtly different algorithms used here
for the different languages and formal/informal.  I don't think it's
worthwhile to define a @counter-style type for it when there's only
one or two types of list that would ever use it.  This is similar to
the current situation with 'hebrew' and 'ethiopian-numeric' - they use
algorithms that can't be easily generalized, so rather than making a
one-shot 'type' value, I just define them explicitly.


> Assuming the above understanding is correct:
>
> * Can you add suffix and negative sign for "The Japanese "spoken-out" counter styles"? It might also apply to other predefined styles as well. I thought Appendix A is the place to spec about suffix and negative signs.
>
> * Does that mean, authors can change suffix using
>    content: counter(item, japanese-informal) "suffix"; counter-increment: item; }
> but cannot customize negative signs? I hope it's possible, as authors may want to use different signs as written in the previous mail. I'm not sure how we can do this without adding "japanese-informal" to the "type" property.
>
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/2011Jan/thread.html#msg7

You can mess with the suffix yourself by using 'content' and the
counter() function, as you demonstrated in your example.  The
predefined suffix is only used by the automatic ::marker content
creation.

You can't use 'content' to set the negative sign.

~TJ
Received on Wednesday, 20 April 2011 21:47:55 GMT

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