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[CSSWG] Minutes and Resolutions 2009-04-15

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 01:52:10 -0700
Message-ID: <4A0BDBBA.1020909@inkedblade.net>
To: www-style@w3.org
Summary:

   - Discussed fantasai's page counters proposal
       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0227.html

   - Discussed ISSUE-28 (keyword to suppress center image in 'border-image')
       http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/28

   - RESOLVED: Accept dbaron's proposal for CSS2.1 Issue 112
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-112

   - RESOLVED: Add && to list of value syntax operators in CSS2.1 (issue 113)
               http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-112

====== Full minutes below ======

Attendees:
   César Acebal
   Bert Bos
   David Baron
   fantasai Etemad
   Sylvain Galineau
   Daniel Glazman (via IRC)
   Melinda Grant
   Håkon Wium Lie
   Peter Linss
   Anne van Kesteren
   Emily Walters
   Steve Zilles

<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/04/15-css-irc
Scribe: Sylvain

Page Counters
-------------

   <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0227.html
   Håkon: this sounds complicated to me
   fantasai: agreed
   fantasai: defining interactions between counters does complicate things
   <glazou> sorry, I'm totally unable to call, my phone and SIP are both dead
            at this time
   melinda: if we don't define counter interactions, we can't handle certain
            scenarios....
   melinda: there were issues with using section numbers in document headers
   fantasai: no, that was covered already
   fantasai: use cases that were not working without counter interactions:
             footnote counter that resets on every page but incremented by
             elements in the document
   <Zakim> + +95089aacc
   fantasai: also chapter-level counters that increase with every page in
             the chapter but reset at the next chapter (?)
   Håkon: agree with the footnote scenario, that is important. not sure
          whether it needs to be so complex
   dbaron: I'm surprised it's so simple, given how complicated some of the
           counters stuff is :)
   plinss: aside from general complexity, are there specific issues to be
           addressed ?
* glazou finally....
   Håkon: proposal: for any named counter, only allow interaction for the
          oldest one
   fantasai: counter name hiding is not the complex issue but the nesting
             of elements
   dbaron: I haven't looked at the proposal yet.
   <fantasai> and multiple break points
   <fantasai> at the same page break
   melinda: we should take a week to think about this further.
   fantasai: this proposal is actually the second iteration (after melinda
             shot down the first one)
   plinss: can we elaborate on how the proposal evolved to its current stage ?
   fantasai describes the proposal's rules
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0227.html
   <dbaron> It's worth being careful that the multiple break point rule
            doesn't kick in when an element crosses three pages.
   fantasai: first rule deals with the general simple case; second rule with
             multiple break points
   fantasai: I would really like to hear from Michael Day, Antenna House,
             and David Baron on this proposal
   melinda: we have implementations that do what we want, the spec should
            match them
   fantasai: I would postpone this discussion until we hear back from AH
             and Prince
   Håkon: sounds good
   Håkon will ping Antenna House and Prince on the issue
   plinss: we can put this back on next week's agenda or the week after

Borders & Backgrounds
---------------------

   <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0228.html
   fantasai: i'm waiting for feedback on most of these open issues
   * dbaron wonders what issue 28 is
   fantasai: we can probably close issue 28 as no change
   fantasai: people seem to like color fallback so we may keep the feature
             but change the syntax
   fantasai: only two conclusions I have at this point
   Håkon: I'd like to find a way to clip the center image
   fantasai: none of the authors that have given feedback so far think this
             is worth making border-image more complex
   Håkon: but i'm an author too :)
   * glazou_ does not think howcome  is the average web author :-)
   Håkon: this is so easy to do now; without it you need to do Photoshop work
   Håkon to look at the proposal again...
   Bert: I prefer simplicity so I would not mind not adding the feature
   Håkon: it is a slight increase in complexity that saves a frequent work item
   Håkon: in fact, why not specify when you want to keep the center image
          i.e. the default should be to clip it
   Håkon: the default today is that unless you use a manual tool you're not
          really getting a border anymore
   Bert: but how do you define the slicing of that image into 9 proper
         pieces without some editing work
   fantasai suggests a straw poll
   plinss: if you force the author to use transparency, you force them to
           choose a particular format
   plinss: another use case, the author want the same image to be used in
           two places, one of which includes the center but not the other
   Håkon: this is not about graphical feature creep but the default behavior
          of this property
+SteveZ
   plinss: i'm not hearing consensus yet
   Håkon: we'll keep it as an issue

Column/page break discussion postponed so alexmog can participate.

CSS 2.1
-------

   <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1
   fantasai: several action items open on Saloni, can we get those reassigned?
   plinss: someone from msft ?
   * sylvaing is alone in the room :)
   ACTION: sylvain and arron to work on Saloni's 2.1 issues

   <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-112
   <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0099.html
   fantasai: I'd like to adopt dbaron's proposal; it's straightforward
   <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#column-alignment
   Bert: what is the exact issue ?
   dbaron: some people think this section means text-align applies to columns
   dbaron: the text does not specify which elements the property applies to
           and the title implies that it may apply to table columns
   fantasai: dbaron's proposal is to clearly disambiguate this
   Bert: change seems ok. but is not absolutely necessary
   plinss, fantasai: editorial change. no conflict with implementations.
   plinss: objections ?
   szilles: no objection to the change, but not sure it fixes the problem
   plinss: we're not changing any behavior just clarifying interpretation
   RESOLVED: dbaron's proposal accepted (Issue-112)

   <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-113
   fantasai: we discussed this at the F2F
   <fantasai> I requested an && syntax operator to the values and units
              module and it was suggested that we instead add it to 2.1
   Håkon does not like having this in CSS3 values and units; should it
         go into 2.1 syntax ?
   plinss: I have no issues with putting this in 2.1
   Bert: it doesn't hurt 2.1 since it's not used
   Bert: ...by 2.1
   melinda: would we be able to qualify it ?
   fantasai: editorial change, does not define a feature
   Håkon: agree
   szilles: if this is an editorial change, I suggest a note clarifying
            that this notation is specified for completeness but unused
   szilles: it would helpful to have examples to describe it
   RESOLVED: add && to list of value syntax operators
             (http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-113)
   szilles can do without the note but would like a clear usage example

   discussion of 2.1 issues that need action items
   plinss: we should ask people to process their issues; assign action
           items to unassigned issues next week
Received on Thursday, 14 May 2009 08:52:52 GMT

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