W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-rdf-interest@w3.org > August 2003

Re: practical problems with rdf:parseType="Collection" implementation

From: Sean Mehan <sean@smo.uhi.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:05:06 +0100
To: Bob MacGregor <macgregor@ISI.EDU>, Garret Wilson <garret@globalmentor.com>, www-rdf-interest@w3.org
Message-Id: <200308131105.06573.sean@smo.uhi.ac.uk>

+2 on RDF:List semantics being driven by a logic paradigm, which has dealt 
with associated concepts and problems for longer than I have been alive, as 
opposed to being driven by JAVA, which has been around considerably less.



regards,
sean




On Wednesday 13 August 2003 01:39, Bob MacGregor wrote:
> Garret,
>
> It would seem that you were never a Common Lisp
> programmer, or the constraints on RDF lists would seem
> natural.  You apparently are taking it for granted that
> operations on lists other than the empty list should be
> "destructive".  That decision probably deserves some
> discussion.
>
> I wasn't a party to the discussions that lead to inventing
> RDF:List semantics, but its likely that the motivation
> was based on ability to manipulate lists via logic, rather
> than via Java or some other procedural
> language.  RDF:List semantics is closely aligned with
> both Prolog-style and KIF-style lists.  As such, its
> semantics is probably not open to debate.
>
> A key question is whether or not an API
> for manipulating lists should make it easy to support
> both destructive and non-destructive operations.  In the
> Common Lisp world, list operations frequently occur in
> pairs.  For example, "append" is non-destructive concatenation
> of lists, and "nconc" is its destructive analog.  "reverse" is
> a non-destructive reversal, and "nreverse" is destructive
> reversal.  I would prefer seeing the same thing for an RDF API,
> unless someone can present a good argument against it.
>
> Cheers, Bob
>
> At 05:09 PM 8/12/2003 -0700, Garret Wilson wrote:
> >Everyone,
> >
> >I'm just getting around to implementing support for
> >rdf:parseType="Collection", even though I've been using it for a while in
> >specifications I've written.
> >
> >The design of rdf:List looks good in theory, but there are a few details
> >that make it a pain to implement---particularly, the way rdf#nil is used:
> >
> >1. Empty lists cannot be modified.
> >
> >In the RDF world, it's natural to think that one can always add things to
> >a resource. I can specify another dc:creator to a book. I can later add an
> >rdfs:label to a resource. Yes, I know that RDF is designed to only be
> >aware of one set of static relationships, but in the real world we need to
> >modify resources at some time or another. We can modify rdf:Alt, rdf:Bag,
> >and rdf:Seq, even if they are empty---we just add one or more resources to
> >the collection.
> >
> >rdf:List is designed so that one cannot add anything to an empty rdf:List,
> >because there is only one empty rdf:List, the one named rdf#nil. There are
> >an infinite number of non-empty lists, with an infinite number of (usually
> >anonymous/blank node) reference URIs, but *none* of those lists can be
> >empty, because the empty list has its own static universal reference URI.
> >Conversely, the empty list can never be added to without changing its
> >reference URI. Put differently, an empty rdf:List cannot be filled---it
> >can only be replaced with a filled list. (Compare this to an rdf:List with
> >one element---programmatically, one can add more elements by changing the
> >rdf:rest property, allowing the list remains the same entity, identified
> >by the same reference URI. This is impossible with an empty list.)
> >
> >2. It is a pain to populate an rdf:List.
> >
> >Even if we accept the theoretical notion of RDF as a static snapshot of
> >relationships, in the real world one has to populate that directed graph
> >programmatically---when parsing an RDF+XML document, for instance. With
> >the old containers, that was easy: we start with an empty rdf:Alt,
> >rdf:Bag, or rdf:Seq and then add elements if and only if they are present.
> >
> >With rdf:List, this procedure remains the same *only* after we know we
> >have one element in a list. Until we have one element in the list, we
> >don't know whether to create an anonymous rdf:List and populate it with
> >items, or (if there are no items) to create an rdf#nil list (with its
> >unique reference URI). This results in very inelegant algorithms:
> >
> >while(there are child elements)
> >{
> >   create a new rdf:List
> >   if(we've already created an rdf:List)
> >   {
> >     add the new rdf:List to the old one
> >   }
> >   else
> >   {
> >     specify that the new list is the "root" list
> >     save this new list for next time
> >   }
> >}
> >if(we have record of finding a "root" list)
> >   use the "root" list as the property value
> >
> >In contrast, the old containers allowed very elegant implementations,
> >because they didn't distinguish conceptually between empty and filled
> >containers:
> >
> >create new container
> >while(there are child elements)
> >{
> >   add the element to the container
> >}
> >use the new container as the property value
> >
> >3. It is impossible to independently insert an element at the beginning of
> >an rdf:List.
> >
> >In object-oriented programming, I'd like to have an object represent an
> >rdf:List. In Java, something implementing java.util.List would be great.
> >Given any MyList, it's a simple matter to insert something at index i+1
> >with i>0: I just create a new rdf:List with rdf:first representing the
> >inserted resource, change rdf:List(i).rdf:rest to point to the new
> >rdf:List, and change rdf:List(i+1).rdf:rest to the old value of
> >rdf:List(i).rdf:rest.
> >
> >That's all fine except when i=0. To insert at the front of the list, I
> >have to know for which resource property the rdf:List is the property
> >value. This is made worse by the fact that several properties (of several
> >resources) might have the rdf:List as a property value. This leads to the
> >following inconsistency: if resources example.com#book1,
> >example.com#book2, and example.com#book3 all have a property of
> >listOfComments, I can always add another comment to the end of the list
> >without modifying the property value for any of the books, but if I want
> >to *insert* a comment at the first of the list, I have to modify the
> >property value for each of the books.
> >
> >In very practical terms, that means if I have the function...
> >
> >add(RDFList list, RDFResource resourceElement, int index)
> >
> >...it will work for all values of index except index==0, unless I have
> >access to the entire RDF data model, walk the graph, and find all
> >resources which have properties for which the list is a property value.
> >
> >Similarly, going back to problem #1 (above), the function...
> >
> >add(RDFList list, RDFResource resourceElement, int index)
> >
> >...cannot work with empty lists!
> >
> >I understand that the old collection framework had shortcomings (those
> >silly indexes, for one thing) and that the new rdf:List framework looks
> >nice in a pretty static graph on paper. The specific way that rdf#nil is
> >used as an empty list, however, creates very inelegant impelementation
> >restrictions. Surely rdf:List could me modified to be better than the old
> >collections, yet also usable in real life.
> >
> >Garret
>
> =====================================
> Robert MacGregor
> Senior Project Leader
> macgregor@isi.edu
> Phone: 310/448-8423, Fax:  310/822-6592
> Mobile: 310/251-8488
>
> USC Information Sciences Institute
> 4676 Admiralty Way, Marina del Rey, CA 90292
> =====================================
Received on Thursday, 14 August 2003 03:14:25 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Monday, 7 December 2009 10:52:01 GMT