W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-rdf-comments@w3.org > January to March 2003

Re: Clarifications needed for the Collection construct (with CR)

From: Karsten Tolle <tolle@dbis.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:31:27 +0100
Message-ID: <001901c2dd9b$62249830$230b028d@HANNOVER>
To: "pat hayes" <phayes@ai.uwf.edu>, <dave.beckett@bristol.ac.uk>, <hendler@cs.umd.edu>
Cc: <www-rdf-comments@w3.org>

contains also a comment to: Issue #hendler-01 literals in

... thanks Pat for your input.

> >genID:1  rdf:type  rdf:List .
> >genID:1  rdf:first  ex:aaa .
> >genID:1  rdf:first  ex:bbb .
> >genID:1  rdf:rest  ex:ccc .
> >genID:1  rdf:rest  genID:2 .
> >genID:2  rdf:type  rdf:List .
> >genID:1  rdf:rest  rdf:nil .
> >
> >The question that arises, does it make any sense?
> Yes, it does. If one were to assume (as for example OWL does) that
> rdf:first was a functional (unique-valued) property, then this graph
> would entail that ex:aaa = ex:bbb = ex:ccc (in OWL, this could be
> expressed by owl:sameIndividualAs).
> Since neither equality nor functionality can be expressed in RDFS,
> this constraint doesn't amount to much in the RDF model theory; but
> as the spec points out, a semantic extension  (like OWL) may impose
> further conditions on the RDF collection vocabulary.

OK, I think this entailment (ex:aaa = ex:bbb = ex:ccc ) should be stated
in RDF Semantics (3.2.3) and in the RDF Primer too!

Having the mail from this archive: Issue #hendler-01 literals in
in mind, it might cause additional problems. It then can result in something
"Hello World" = ex:aaa
A literal being equal to a resource!?!

There is also the possibility of a list node without rdf:first. The semantic
not clear to me, but I think this case is less problematic and should be
by applications using the RDF graph.

For the usage of rdf:nil I still see problems. Using it as a bound, what
does it mean
to have more than one or none? ... see also my comments below.

> >What would it mean to
> >have a collection element with different values?
> They might not be different, see above. The use of different names
> does not entail that the values are different. This is one reason why
> there is little point in imposing 'wellformedness' conditions in RDF
> collections either on the syntax (they would be too strong, or else
> too complicated to be useful) or on the semantics (they would have no
> effect in RDF since they would have no expressible entailments.)
> >Would it not make more
> >sense to enter a rdf:Bag instead? But there is also another question: Do
> >need the collection construct at all?
> It was specifically requested by the Webont working group, as a
> necessary requirement for OWL. So the answer is yes.
> >Before there had been three kinds of
> >containers, rdf:Bag, rdf:Seq and rdf:Alt.
> >There are some differences between containers and a collection. A
> >container in RDF is one resource containing all its members. The
> >is different, there are many resources linked with each other. These
> >resources are linked with their value(s) and the end of the collection is
> >denoted by the empty list as the object for the rdf:rest property. Now
> >comes the main aim of this new construct: It defines a fixed finite list
> >items with a given length and terminated by rdf:nil, at least this is
> >we
> >can read in [4] section 4.2.
> >Reaching the goal? There is no restriction on the structure of lists in
> RDF.
> >As shown there can be more than one rdf:rest, more than one rdf:first and
> >even the existence of rdf:nil as the terminating object is nowhere
> But how could it be forced? RDF graphs cannot have global conditions
> imposed on them by the spec, since they may be formed in real time,
> by rather dumb software which simply collects triples from other
> places and mixes them together. RDF does not undertake to impose any
> global syntactic wellformedness conditions on graphs: the 'largest'
> syntactic unit in RDF is the triple, and a graph is simply a set of
> triples. The intention of the 'list' vocabulary however is that *if*
> the lists are 'well-formed' *then* they denote an appropriate
> sequence of items.

But there are already such conditions. E.g., a node with
rdf:type=rdf:Statement must
have exactly one connection by rdf:subject, rdf:object and rdf:predicate.

In the same way we could force a collection to have exactly one rdf:nil.

> >By default the collection is constructed with blank nodes
> No, there is no such default. RDF/XML parsers will do this, but that
> is an XML matter.
> >but even this can
> >be changed.
> >
> >Example: A collection with non-blank node.
> ><rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"
> >          xmlns:ex="http://example.org/stuff/1.0/">
> >   <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://example.org/basket">
> >     <ex:hasFruit rdf:resource="myCollection">
> >       <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://example.org/apple"/>
> >       <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://example.org/pear"/>
> >     </ex:hasFruit>
> >   <rdf:List rdf:ID="myCollection">
> >         <rdf:first rdf:about="http://example.org/apple"/>
> >         <rdf:rest rdf:parseType="Collection">
> >            <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://example.org/pear"/>
> >         </rdf:rest>
> >   </rdf:List>
> >   </rdf:Description>
> ></rdf:RDF>
> >
> >This example should generate the following triples:
> >
> ><http://example.org/basket>http://example.org/basket  ex:hasFruit
> >ns1:myCollection .
> >ns1:myCollection  rdf:type  rdf:List .
> >ns1:myCollection  rdf:first
> ><http://example.org/apple>http://example.org/apple .
> >ns1:myCollection  rdf:rest  genID:1 .
> >genID:1  rdf:type  rdf:List .
> >genID:1  rdf:first  <http://example.org/pear>http://example.org/pear .
> >genID:1  rdf:rest  rdf:nil .
> >
> >The effect is that by entering a non-blank node someone could enter also
> >to the collection construct elements from outside. This means without
> >any restrictions this construct is not fixed!
> Right, it is not. Nothing is 'fixed' in this sense in RDF. Bear in
> mind - its a centrally important point - that the RDF/XML notation is
> *only* an XML serialization syntax for the RDF graph. Any extra
> structure you might feel is 'natural' in the XML (eg the assumption
> that the listed elements of a container are the full complement of
> the members) is not significant in the RDF if it is not made explicit
> in the RDF graph itself. The relatively 'tight' syntactic form of the
> XML is potentially misleading if this point is not kept in mind.

It should be stated in the RDF Primer!

> >What about other relevant RDF constructs? In [4] the following is stated:
> >A limitation of the containers is that there is no way to close them,
> >to
> >say, "these are all the members of the container". This is because, while
> >one graph may describe some of the members, there is no way to exclude
> >the possibility that there is another graph somewhere that describes
> >additional members.
> >But we can also use blank nodes to identify the rdf:Bag itself. Blank
> >#can not be referred from outside and therefore no further member can be
> >added.
> That is true so long as one only uses a blank node to refer to the
> container. But it is legal, and often useful, to refer to a container
> with a uriref. And in any case, the syntactic limitation is not
> itself a semantic licence to conclude that there are no other items
> in the container. In general, any RDF graph can only be expected to
> be a partial description of the domain being described, and this
> applies to containers as well as everything else.
> >It even needs less triples and the graph is more easy to read. The
> >example of the fruit basket could be written as:
> >
> >Example: The fruit basket using the bag construct.
> ><rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"
> >          xmlns:ex="http://example.org/stuff/1.0/">
> >   <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://example.org/basket">
> >     <ex:hasFruit>
> >          <rdf:Bag>
> >             <rdf:li rdf:resource="http://example.org/apple"/>
> >             <rdf:li rdf:resource="http://example.org/pear"/>
> >          </rdf:Bag>
> >     </ex:hasFruit>
> >   </rdf:Description>
> ></rdf:RDF>
> >
> ><http://example.org/basket>http://example.org/basket  ex:hasFruit
> .
> >genID:1  rdf:type  rdf:Bag .
> >genID:1  rdf:_1  <http://example.org/apple>http://example.org/apple .
> >genID:1  rdf:_2  <http://example.org/pear>http://example.org/pear .
> >
> >Without restrictions on the collection construct it is just a more
> >way of expressing things we already could express before using
> No, it allows you to positively assert that the collection is bounded
> (by the use of rdf:nil), which is impossible with RDF containers.

Since there can be multiple or none rdf:nil appear in a collection, it might
be more
effective to have an extra property denoting the length of a collection or

> >Possible restrictions can be:
> >1. Each collection in RDF must have exactly one terminating rdf:nil
> element.
> >2. Each collection element must have exactly one connection with the
> >rdf:first property.
> >3. Each collection element must have exactly one connection with the
> >rdf:rest property.
> >4. Collection elements in RDF have to be blank nodes.
> >
> >It might be too restrictive to have all these restrictions
> It is too restrictive, in my view, to have any of them as a global
> wellformedness condition on RDF graphs: to do so would require all
> conforming RDF engines to check these conditions every time a graph
> merge is performed.
> >and there also
> >might
> >be further reasons for introducing the collection construct.
> The chief reason is that it was formally requested by another WG, so
> I suggest you take up this matter with them
> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/)
> >The main difference at the moment is that a container is one resource
> >containing
> >all values, while the collection contains different linked resources
> >containing
> >the values. In [1] we can find in the appendix A.3 that the collection
> >construct
> >was also introduced to support recursive processing in languages such as
> >Prolog. There should not be a special construct for each programming
> >language.
> >
> >Additional question:
> >What would be the fixed length of a collection? (Number of nodes of type
> >rdf:List that are linked (minus rdf:nil nodes), the number of rdf:first
> >connections?
> The intended meaning is that it would be the number of non-nil nodes
> of type rdf:List.
> >What about multi sets in collections?)
> Not sure what you mean.
> Thanks for your very thorough and detailed comments, by the way.
> Best wishes
> Pat Hayes
> ___________________________________
> Karsten Tolle
Received on Wednesday, 26 February 2003 08:29:51 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 21 September 2012 14:16:31 GMT