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[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2013-02-28

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:46:36 +0000
Message-ID: <512FA60C.5090409@w3.org>
To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html






Text version follows:


Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

28 Feb 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Feb/0022.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Addison, Fantasai, Richard, Norbert, John_K, John_O,
           Jan, Mati

    Regrets
           David, felix, aharon

    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           aphillip

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda
          2. [6]Action Items
          3. [7]Info Share
          4. [8]Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches
             for Ruby Markup"
          5. [9]The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This
             Meeting At?
          6. [10]Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal
          7. [11]Text decoration
          8. [12]Charmod-Norm
          9. [13]AOB?
         10. [14]UTF-8 requirement
      * [15]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

Agenda

Action Items

    <r12a> [16]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

      [16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    close ACTION-176

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-176 Ping anne about encoding spec.

    close action-186

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-186 Add floating times to pipeline.

    ACTION-187: contacted most browsers (all but mozilla, but have
    contact)

    <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-187 Provide darobin with
    contacts in browser vendors.

    zakim +1.617 is John_C_Klensin

    close action-187

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-187 Provide darobin with contacts in
    browser vendors.

    close action-188

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-188 Merge ruby documents for
    publication as a WG Note.

Info Share

    richard: noticed Leif Havard Silli is now editor of polyglot

Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup"

    <r12a> [17]http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/

      [17] http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/

    richard: put a lot of Leif's comments in (simplfying headings
    and such)
    ... added a snapshot of other document I produced as appendix
    ... other changes made are change marked
    ... also converted to html5

    <scribe> chair: review for next week publication as note status

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: announce ruby note will be published
    as note, last call for next week [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Announce ruby note will be
    published as note, last call for next week [on Richard Ishida -
    due 2013-03-07].

    <r12a>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/

      [19] http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/

    richard: elika may want to look at that... some embedding
    improvements?

    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/2013Jan
    Mar/0058.html

      [20] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/2013JanMar/0058.html

    addison: above thread about bopomofo support

    richard: (describing various issues for zhuyin ruby and layout)

    fantasai: concern that there are two styles
    ... what happens when writing bopomofo just as plain text
    ... not as ruby, just as the base text
    ... what happens to the tone marks?

    <r12a> [21]http://rishida.net/blog/?p=494

      [21] http://rishida.net/blog/?p=494

    richard: wrote the above

    fantasai: kenny might know?

    richard: talked to kenny. put that info into above?
    ... only have horizontal example
    ... tone mark following
    ... not sure of vertical, might have seen something
    ... very rare
    ... mostly used with the Chinese characters

    addison: any effect on note?

    richard: not really??

    fantasai: agree. issue is how to handle writing system in
    general or is this only when drawing ruby
    ... in which case tie it into ruby specs

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: write to contacts and cjk list about
    bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - Write to contacts and cjk list
    about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [on Richard
    Ishida - due 2013-03-07].

The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At?

    [23]http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw

      [23] http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw

Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal

    richard: had a discussion with aharon and elika and tab last
    night

    <r12a>
    [24]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation

      [24] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation

    richard: tab sent me a writeup and more info that I integrated
    to wiki as "proposal B" for the time being
    ... upshot basically is that new values for @dir may have
    benefits
    ... in that 1) may be easier to manage after the transition and
    wouldn't leave so much baggage around
    ... 2) would be easy to implement
    ... this is predicated on the expectation that the transition
    period would be small-ish
    ... so what is proposed is instead of rli/lri
    ... use an 'r' and an 'l' value
    ... don't have to think about isolation
    ... more familiar
    ... and don't have to deprecate the @dir
    ... easier to type
    ... key thing is the transition period

    addison: has some feedback at my IMUG talk.. think better to
    migrate @dir

    johnK: a lot of people will get it wrong the other way and this
    is simple... less interop problems

    richard: if you use @dir and @direction then you get fallback
    behavior in unaware browsers
    ... but transition is short because implementation is
    straightforward
    ... use CSS-hack mentioned previously
    ... otherwise use <bdi> for inline
    ... and this is as currently described in our bidi article

    addison: don't really like 'r' and 'l' as values, non-mnemonic

    richard: key issue is transition period

    addison: transition period may be somewhat long because of IE
    and android on mobile devices

    <fantasai> discussion of including the appropriate style rules
    into reset stylesheets / polyfill libraries

    richard: put out for discussion again
    ... www-international or html or...?

    addison: winter at least, html too?

    fantasai: unsure of names?

    addison: new tokens or new attribute is the question and we're
    back to tokens?

    richard: bidi list, robin also

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: request comments on wiki page about
    bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html
    [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - Request comments on wiki page
    about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list,
    and html [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].

    johnk: no strong thoughts on 'r' or 'l', except that single
    characters are generally a bad idea because too short and error
    prone

Text decoration

    [26]http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw

      [26] http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw

    [27]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal201
    3

      [27] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013

    fantasai: (aside) planning to wrap up comments on
    text-decoration
    ... open issue about underlining style skip spaces... do we
    skip ethopic

    <fantasai> ethiopic word space

    <fantasai> tibetan tsek

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: solicit from input Unicode on
    skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic
    word sep, etc. [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-192 - Solicit from input Unicode on
    skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic
    word sep, etc. [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-07].

    <fantasai> if spaces are skipped when underlining, should we
    skip those?

    richard: underline can be broken by descender?

    fantasai: yes, in particular style

    richard: in like tibetan, descenders can be generated by
    combinations

    fantasai: there is a skip-ink value to allow for that?

    richard: but tibetan or khmer, you have some characters that
    conditionally poke through baseline

    addison: happens on the rendered glyphs, not based on character

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink
    for tibetan or khmer [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-193 - Supply CSS3 with pictures of
    skip-ink for tibetan or khmer [on Richard Ishida - due
    2013-03-07].

Charmod-Norm

    [30]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal201
    3

      [30] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013

    [31]http://inter-locale.com/w3c/charmod-norm-1.1-draft.html

      [31] http://inter-locale.com/w3c/charmod-norm-1.1-draft.html

    <r12a> addison: started calling it charmod 1.1 - is that a good
    idea?

    <r12a> ... history of character model as a whole is
    significantly about early n11n - this may point up the change
    in concepts

    <r12a> johnO: might be good idea

    <r12a> johnK: there are references all around, so if numbers
    are cheap let do it

    <r12a> addison: will will change the number then - tbd in what
    way

    <r12a> ... so far i kept most ot he examples and definitions
    intact

    <r12a> ... partly because we have specs that have specified
    those (full-, etc-n11n)

    <r12a> ... took out all the requirements and put in wiki

    <r12a> ... sensing that the focus of the doc is string matching
    now

    <r12a> ... split into 3 chunks:

    <r12a> ... 1. how to do string matching and normalization

    <r12a> ... 2. unicode normalization, for people who used these
    recommendations before

    <r12a> ... 3. non-normalizing specifications, what you need to
    know

    <r12a> ... there are a couple that are obsolete or don't fit
    neatly, like security issues, etc

    <r12a> ... next step is to pull section 4 into the document and
    position as the main focus

    <r12a> ... also bring in materials on case folding as part of
    that

    <r12a> ... terse statements (dos and donts) are in the wiki for
    review

    <r12a> ... key ones at the top, and others nearer the bottom

    <r12a> norbert: so you want to move away from unicode n11n?

    <r12a> adddison: you can't require it or depend on it for
    string matching, but the first req is that NFC makes life
    easier

    <r12a> norbert: first should be not to assume that text is
    normalized

    <r12a> ... but user text probably should be normalised

    <r12a> ... such as the find command in a browser

    <r12a> ... maybe thats a should rather than a may

    <joconner> will have to drop off call, will stay on irc

    <r12a> johnK: if you don't require for searches users will be
    crazy

    <r12a> addison: but also it makes them crazy if it looks the
    same but their css selector doesn't work

    <r12a> norbert: that's why i distinguish between user and code

    <r12a> r12a: you should modify only in the actual matching
    process - don't break an author's text

    <matial> have to leave

    addison: I'll update charmod norm reqs

    norbert: annotate what C I and S mean in the wiki

AOB?

UTF-8 requirement

    <jan> I had t odrop off the call to attend another one

    norbert: propose Unicode must be supported (other encodings may
    be supported)

    addison: will make topic for next week (lost audience)

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: solicit from input Unicode on skipping
    spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep,
    etc. [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: announce ruby note will be published as
    note, last call for next week [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: request comments on wiki page about bidi
    change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html
    [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink
    for tibetan or khmer [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: write to contacts and cjk list about
    bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]


-- 
Richard Ishida, W3C
http://rishida.net/
Received on Thursday, 28 February 2013 18:47:00 GMT

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