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Re: Possible issues with the CLDR quote marks info

From: Mark Davis ☕ <mark@macchiato.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:16:23 -0800
Message-ID: <CAJ2xs_FyyDzOrUDCApv57okcCn0a2_yGeEswmba8fJQNf0WSZA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>
Cc: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org>, Roozbeh Pournader <roozbeh@gmail.com>
I added these as comments to

http://unicode.org/cldr/trac/ticket/4201

Please let us know of any further comments there.

Mark
*— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —*
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On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 05:59, Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com> wrote:

> Here is feedback that I received from 2 colleagues about the quotes used
> in Hebrew.
>
> =================================================================
>
> According to late discussions on keyboard, Hebrew quotation marks should
> be paired in what foreigners would find a surprising way:
>
> 201e 201d 201a 2019
>
> (right-low-9-quotes, right-quotes)
>
> The current row reads
>
> :lang(he) { quotes: '\201c' '\201d' '\0022' '\0022'; }
>
> For sure, the use of 0022 (ANSI quotes) as secondary quotes in Hebrew is
> wrong.
>
>
> Shai.
>
> =================================================================
>
>
> The current definition for Hebrew is probably wrong.
>
> The source is the CLDR. CLDR listing for Hebrew says that the values
> for quotationEnd and quotationStart are "draft=contributed" and i
> wonder who contributed them.
>
> To the best of my understanding, the Hebrew Language Academy
> best-practice recommendation [1] is:
> quotationStart: „ (201e)
> quotationEnd: ” (201d)
>
> The recommended characters for a quotation inside a quotation are:
> opening: ‚ (201a)
> closing: ’ (2019)
>
> (Sorry, i'm not sure about the correct CLDR names for this.)
>
> That's what i suggested for the keyboard standard, too.
>
> These quotation marks were actually used quite frequently in older
> printed books in Hebrew and the Academy still defines this as the best
> practice.
>
> Of course, the most common practice for daily writing (emails etc.) is
> to use " and ' for both opening and closing quotation marks. Most
> professionally printed books and journals probably use ” (201d) and ’
> (2019) for both opening and closing, but occasionally i see the use of
> lower quotation marks, too (and not just in my own blog!). Using “
> (201c) anywhere is neither common nor recommended by the Academy.
>
> Another comment is that Apple devices such as iPhone use ׳ (geresh,
> 05f3) and ״ (gershayim, 05f4) for quotation marks, which is
> interesting, but not quite right. They should be used for acronyms and
> pronunciation marks (like in ג׳ורג׳ and מנכ״ל). Again, the most common
> practice in other consumer devices is to use " and ', because that's
> what most keyboards have. I'm not even sure that geresh and gershayim
> these should be anywhere in the CLDR.
>
> Please correct me if i'm mistaken about anything.
>
> Richard also asked about Arabic typography. I'm quite sure that the
> current is wrong about Arabic, but an Arabic typography expert should
> be consulted on that matter.
>
> [1] http://hebrew-academy.huji.ac.il/hahlatot/Punctuation/Pages/P31.aspx
>
Received on Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:17:00 GMT

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