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Re: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)

From: Daniel Goldschmidt <daniel@i18nworld.com>
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:10:21 +0200
Message-ID: <e9f8dcc60905140510r28e9978ep186019a403a4c2f3@mail.gmail.com>
To: Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>
Cc: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, www-international@w3.org, www-international-request@w3.org
Hey Mati,

I agree with you that we should not replace the digits in the source
text.  I also agree that this should be usually a user preference.

My concern is the different behavior between the two browsers.

Toda,
Daniel

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>    Daniel and Richard!
>
> Displaying Arabic-Hindi digits for numbers within Arabic text is usually a
> user preference.  Or rather it is a regional preference: users in
> Arabic-speaking countries of the Middle-East mostly prefer Arabic-Hindi
> digits, but users of Arabic-speaking countries of North Africa prefer
> Arabic-European digits.  Thus, this is the kind of things which is best left
> to decide according to the locale (or Regional Options in MS-speak).
> Ideally, all numbers should be formatted according to the locale, which
> would take care of the choice of decimal point and decimal separator.
>
> Replacing the digits in the source text (U+0030..U+0039 by U+0660..U+0669)
> will force display of Arabic-Hindi digits even to those users which prefer
> the Arabic-European digits, so it is not an optimal solution unless the
> audience is well defined and known to have this preference.
>
> Shalom (Regards),  Mati
>           Bidi Architect
>           Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts
>           IBM Israel
>           Phone: +972 2 5888802    Fax: +972 2 5870333    Mobile: +972 52
> 2554160
>
>
>
> "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
> Sent by: www-international-request@w3.org
>
> 14/05/2009 11:03
>
> To
> "'Richard Ishida'" <ishida@w3.org>, <daniel.goldschmidt@gmail.com>,
> <www-international@w3.org>
> cc
> Subject
> RE: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)
>
>
>
>
> Btw, I assume that the change of glyphs would need to be applied to other
> characters than just digits, eg. decimal separators, thousands separators.
> This may introduce complications because those things may be
> language-dependant.
>
> RI
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-
>> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
>> Sent: 14 May 2009 08:56
>> To: daniel.goldschmidt@gmail.com; www-international@w3.org
>> Subject: RE: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF
> (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)
>>
>> I guess the bigger question here is "Should it be possible to represent
>> European digit characters with different glyphs (that correspond to other
>> Unicode characters)" ?
>>
>> One issue with relying on the operating system for such preferences is
> that
>> the displayed text is likely to look different on different platforms,
>> browsers and devices.  One could argue that maps digit shapes to reflect
> the
>> user's preferences, but I'm not sure.
>>
>> Fwiw, I don't think the directionality of the page should have any effect
> on
>> this at all.  The dir attribute only affects the base direction, and that
> is
>> not relevant to whether the glyphs are displayed one way or the other.
>>
>> I assume that the behaviour of IE is due to it being so closely linked
> with
>> the operating system.
>>
>> As to your last question, there is no CSS or markup that allows that
>> preference that I'm aware of.  Btw, if someone copy-pastes the text where
>> European digit characters are displayed as Arabic-indic glyphs, I doubt
> you
>> can guarantee that the characters will display in the form displayed.
>>
>> But if you want to control the behaviour, why not just use the relevant
>> Unicode characters?
>>
>> RI
>>
>> ============
>> Richard Ishida
>> Internationalization Lead
>> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/International/
>> http://rishida.net/
>>
>>
>>
>> From: www-international-request@w3.org
>> [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Goldschmidt
>> Sent: 13 May 2009 19:16
>> To: www-international@w3.org
>> Subject: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)
>>
>> Hey,
>>
>> In Arabic (and other language) the European Decimal digits can be
> substitute
>> by Hindi digit depending the context.
>>
>> On Windows platform there is a possibility to set the digits substitution
>> behavior to as follow:
>>  - Context (the default)
>>  - None
>>  - National
>>
>> (Control Panel -> Regional and Language Setting -> Regional Options ->
>> Customize)
>>
>> I'm experiencing differences in the behavior of  Firefox, Chrome, and
>> Internet Explorer, while displaying digits in pages with dir="RTL" (with
>> Regional Options set to Arabic(Egypt)):
>> In Firefox/Chrome the digits are not substituted (European Decimal digits
>> are displayed)
>> In IE digits are substituted (Hindi digits are displayed)
>>
>> Questions:
>> What is the reason for those behaviour of the different browsers?
>> Can I control (using CSS or markups) the behaviour? (I cannot expect the
>> end-user to change his/her setting in the control panel...).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Daniel
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Goldschmidt
>> Internationalization and Localization expert
>> www.locflowtech.com
>>
>> Office: +972-72-212-2350
>> Mobile: +41-78-774-6307
>> Skype: dgoldschmidt
>>
>>
>> Visit us at www.localizationworld.com
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Daniel Goldschmidt
Internationalization and Localization expert
www.locflowtech.com

Office: +972-72-212-2350
Mobile: +41-78-774-6307
Skype: dgoldschmidt


Visit us at www.localizationworld.com
Received on Thursday, 14 May 2009 12:24:32 GMT

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