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Re: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)

From: Dan Chiba <dan.chiba@oracle.com>
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 19:58:39 -0700
Message-ID: <4A0E2BDF.40109@oracle.com>
To: daniel.goldschmidt@gmail.com
CC: Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com>, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, www-international@w3.org, www-international-request@w3.org
I wonder if you could apply XSL, character-map may help achieve the 
desired effect.
http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/#character-maps

Regards,
-Dan

Daniel Goldschmidt wrote:
> Hey Mati,
>
> I agree with you that we should not replace the digits in the source
> text.  I also agree that this should be usually a user preference.
>
> My concern is the different behavior between the two browsers.
>
> Toda,
> Daniel
>
> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Matitiahu Allouche <matial@il.ibm.com> wrote:
>   
>>    Daniel and Richard!
>>
>> Displaying Arabic-Hindi digits for numbers within Arabic text is usually a
>> user preference.  Or rather it is a regional preference: users in
>> Arabic-speaking countries of the Middle-East mostly prefer Arabic-Hindi
>> digits, but users of Arabic-speaking countries of North Africa prefer
>> Arabic-European digits.  Thus, this is the kind of things which is best left
>> to decide according to the locale (or Regional Options in MS-speak).
>> Ideally, all numbers should be formatted according to the locale, which
>> would take care of the choice of decimal point and decimal separator.
>>
>> Replacing the digits in the source text (U+0030..U+0039 by U+0660..U+0669)
>> will force display of Arabic-Hindi digits even to those users which prefer
>> the Arabic-European digits, so it is not an optimal solution unless the
>> audience is well defined and known to have this preference.
>>
>> Shalom (Regards),  Mati
>>           Bidi Architect
>>           Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts
>>           IBM Israel
>>           Phone: +972 2 5888802    Fax: +972 2 5870333    Mobile: +972 52
>> 2554160
>>
>>
>>
>> "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
>> Sent by: www-international-request@w3.org
>>
>> 14/05/2009 11:03
>>
>> To
>> "'Richard Ishida'" <ishida@w3.org>, <daniel.goldschmidt@gmail.com>,
>> <www-international@w3.org>
>> cc
>> Subject
>> RE: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Btw, I assume that the change of glyphs would need to be applied to other
>> characters than just digits, eg. decimal separators, thousands separators.
>> This may introduce complications because those things may be
>> language-dependant.
>>
>> RI
>>
>> ============
>> Richard Ishida
>> Internationalization Lead
>> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/International/
>> http://rishida.net/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-
>>> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
>>> Sent: 14 May 2009 08:56
>>> To: daniel.goldschmidt@gmail.com; www-international@w3.org
>>> Subject: RE: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF
>>>       
>> (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)
>>     
>>> I guess the bigger question here is "Should it be possible to represent
>>> European digit characters with different glyphs (that correspond to other
>>> Unicode characters)" ?
>>>
>>> One issue with relying on the operating system for such preferences is
>>>       
>> that
>>     
>>> the displayed text is likely to look different on different platforms,
>>> browsers and devices.  One could argue that maps digit shapes to reflect
>>>       
>> the
>>     
>>> user's preferences, but I'm not sure.
>>>
>>> Fwiw, I don't think the directionality of the page should have any effect
>>>       
>> on
>>     
>>> this at all.  The dir attribute only affects the base direction, and that
>>>       
>> is
>>     
>>> not relevant to whether the glyphs are displayed one way or the other.
>>>
>>> I assume that the behaviour of IE is due to it being so closely linked
>>>       
>> with
>>     
>>> the operating system.
>>>
>>> As to your last question, there is no CSS or markup that allows that
>>> preference that I'm aware of.  Btw, if someone copy-pastes the text where
>>> European digit characters are displayed as Arabic-indic glyphs, I doubt
>>>       
>> you
>>     
>>> can guarantee that the characters will display in the form displayed.
>>>
>>> But if you want to control the behaviour, why not just use the relevant
>>> Unicode characters?
>>>
>>> RI
>>>
>>> ============
>>> Richard Ishida
>>> Internationalization Lead
>>> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/International/
>>> http://rishida.net/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: www-international-request@w3.org
>>> [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Goldschmidt
>>> Sent: 13 May 2009 19:16
>>> To: www-international@w3.org
>>> Subject: controlling digits substitution in IE/FF (Arabic/Hindi/Decimal)
>>>
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> In Arabic (and other language) the European Decimal digits can be
>>>       
>> substitute
>>     
>>> by Hindi digit depending the context.
>>>
>>> On Windows platform there is a possibility to set the digits substitution
>>> behavior to as follow:
>>>  - Context (the default)
>>>  - None
>>>  - National
>>>
>>> (Control Panel -> Regional and Language Setting -> Regional Options ->
>>> Customize)
>>>
>>> I'm experiencing differences in the behavior of  Firefox, Chrome, and
>>> Internet Explorer, while displaying digits in pages with dir="RTL" (with
>>> Regional Options set to Arabic(Egypt)):
>>> In Firefox/Chrome the digits are not substituted (European Decimal digits
>>> are displayed)
>>> In IE digits are substituted (Hindi digits are displayed)
>>>
>>> Questions:
>>> What is the reason for those behaviour of the different browsers?
>>> Can I control (using CSS or markups) the behaviour? (I cannot expect the
>>> end-user to change his/her setting in the control panel...).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>> --
>>> Daniel Goldschmidt
>>> Internationalization and Localization expert
>>> www.locflowtech.com
>>>
>>> Office: +972-72-212-2350
>>> Mobile: +41-78-774-6307
>>> Skype: dgoldschmidt
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us at www.localizationworld.com
>>>       
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   
Received on Saturday, 16 May 2009 02:59:25 GMT

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