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Re: The fate of Hebrew texts with Hyphen-Minus instead of Maqaf

From: Mark Davis <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:56:35 -0700
Message-ID: <008b01c37c62$b9a45620$7900a8c0@DAVIS1>
To: <bidi@prognathous.mail-central.com>, <www-international@w3.org>

I find this sentence difficult to understand.

1. The Unicode BIDI algorithm does specify the rendering order of the sequence
HebrewLetter+HyphenMinus+Number. If that rendering order is not what is desired,
then it also provides a way to override it.

2. Unicode BIDI algorithm is a rendering algorithm. It has nothing to do with
keyboards.

Mark
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bidi@prognathous.mail-central.com>
To: <www-international@w3.org>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 12:45
Subject: RE: The fate of Hebrew texts with Hyphen-Minus instead of Maqaf


>
> I'd like to wrap this up.
>
> My understanding is that the Unicode BiDi Algorithm does not provide a
> solution for rendering of *existing* Hebrew texts that include sequences
> of HebrewLetter+HyphenMinus+Number, nor does it provide a solution for
> entry of such sequences with current systems that do not map the Hebrew
> Punctuation Maqaf to the keyboard.
>
> Any objections to the above conclusion?
>
> Prog.
>
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:18:04 +0200,
> bidi@prognathous.mail-central.com said:
> >
> > On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:27:31 +0200, "Jony Rosenne"
> > <rosennej@qsm.co.il> said:
> > > For Hebrew, the Maqaf should be used.
> >
> > I fully agree that the Maqaf should be used. In fact, I actually
> > created a customized Hebrew keymap that replaces the non-numpad
> > Hyphen-Minus with the Maqaf, and this is what I use when writing
> > Hebrew, but... there are massive amounts of *existing* texts that use
> > Hyphen-Minus instead (virtually all of them). What will be their fate?
> > "are they doomed forever to render wrongly under applications that use
> > the Unicode BiDi algorithm?"
> >
> > > Handling the change and the conversion has not been seriously tackled
> > > in any major environment.
> >
> > I'm working on it, but there are currently several obstacles that
> > complicate this campaign:
> > 1. Badly rendered Maqaf glyphs in most common fonts (it's usually too
> >    high). http://exego.net/forums/showMessage.asp?i=9320&qs=
> > 2. The Maqaf and some other punctuation marks are not included in the
> >    Israeli Keyboard Layout Standard (SI-1452). This may hopefully
> >    change, but it takes time to convince everyone on TC-2109 that
> >    adding these marks would be a worthwhile move.
> > 3. It may not be easy to educate users to accept and use the correct
> >    Hebrew punctuation marks, instead of foreign ones.
> > 4. Data integrity issues have to be taken into consideration (e.g.
> >    searching Hebrew texts for Maqaf/Minus, Geresh/Apostrophe, and
> >    Gershaim/Quotes)
> >
> > All of these points are important and once solved, would mean that the
> > Maqaf could be a viable solution, but the fate of existing texts is
> > just as important (and is the main subject of this thread).
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Prog.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Jony
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message----- From: www-international-request@w3.org
> > > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of
> > > > bidi@prognathous.mail-central.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003
> > > > 12:23 AM To: www-international@w3.org Subject: The fate of Hebrew
> > > >    texts with Hyphen-Minus instead of Maqaf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > For the sake of the argument, let's assume that Hebrew Punctuation
> > > > Maqaf is now part of the official keyboard layout; that it is
> > > > implemented well (both in fonts and keymap) in all major operating
> > > > systems; and that users of Hebrew accept the new addition and start
> > > > to use it from then on. What will be the fate of all Hebrew texts
> > > > that used Hyphen-Minus instead? are they doomed forever to render
> > > > wrongly under applications that use the Unicode BiDi algorithm? by
> > > > wrong, I strictly refer to the way the original authors intended
> > > > them to render.
> > > >
> > > > Further discussion about this problem can be found here:
> > > > > http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73251#c32
> > > >
> > > > Prog.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 16 September 2003 10:56:38 GMT

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