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Re: Headline: Styles pondering desertion to Content!

From: Wingnut <wingnut@winternet.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:00:56 -0600
Message-ID: <402527D8.8070001@winternet.com>
To: www-html@w3.org

Donna wrote:
> On 5 Feb 2004, at 15:39, Wingnut wrote:
>> I'm not well versed with all the proper terminology, but I do know 
>> that I need some styling power on my ARROW element.  I need it 
>> aimable, colorable, widthable, lengthable, arrowheadable, 
>> dual-shaftable, tri-shaftable, etc etc.  Same with circles, brackets, 
>> braces, text, all need colors, fonts, sizings, AND ANGLING!  I need 
>> rotation around the z axis... for ALL these critters including 
>> rectangular borders and text.
> XHTML would be for expressing what these symbols *mean*. The meaning 
> isn't the "arrow object". What you draw on the page merely represents 
> the relationship between a source and a destination.
> If you want to indicate than a sentence ought to be in another position 
> in the document, for example, you might surround the offending text with 
> a <span> or suchlike, and add an attribute that points to an anchor you 
> have specified in the appropriate position. Then, define a class that 
> gives the arrow it's desired meaning, i.e. movement, in this example. 
> This would capture the meaning behind the arrow. Multiple targets and 
> multiple sources can represent your dual-shafted arrows. XLink may be 
> able to express these relationships.

Yes, I guess I can swallow that one.  Arrow is a "relationship 
indicating" critter, and in the case where the arrow targets a word 
within a box model, and the other end "originates-from" some angled text 
written by the teacher... angled at the same angle as the arrow... that 
is a relationship too, but between a teacher comment (new data) and a 
location on the HTML layer (original data).  It has an Z-ANGLE 
relationship as well as a "semantic?" relationship.  It is visually 
pertinent in two ways... via the arrowhead's target, and via the 
rotational attitude and physical position of the arrow's source (the 
teacher's textual comments).   Notice I worry more about 
teacher-inserted comments with an arrow pointing to where the teacher 
wants it to apply... than I do about the sentence location-swap example 
that you have used.  Nonetheless, the "relocation" example you use, is a 
very good one that I had forgotten about.  One that possibly dictates an 
"arc" arrow shaft necessity.  Well done!

I suppose there's no way merge SVG and XHTML forever, browser-wise, 
spec-wise, and societal-thinking-wise, eh?  Having SVG commands smoothly 
"built-into" HTML would be a dream come true for me... and likely a 
nightmare for browser-designing layout kids.  But no mixed canvases! 
(mixed "canvi"?) :/

Donna, I think you are describing a variation of the "hot dot" system I 
described earlier.  Its problem is that we lose teacher expressionism, 
and we lose the "traditional way" that school papers are graded... a 
method teachers are already well-versed-in.  The big red marker pen. 
Yep, your idea certainly can be done, though I'm not sure how accepted 
it will be by "the grading group".

> If you circle something, you are saying that what is in that circle has 
> special meaning (e.g. "wrong"). So define a class for it, and mark the 
> object up.

I think that's what I'm asking for.  How do I get a circular border? 
Can I put it around ANY text, including text already styled by another? 
  Will a "standard browser" render it?  Heck, I'm scared to try to 
"define a class" (make an element?), speak not of spending such time on 
a new element that no browser will ever render, due to lack of z-axis 
rotation prowess in browsers.... and many other dissuading reasons.  Its 
seems that if the W3C doesn't like an idea, a browser company won't add 
the feature.  AND/OR... if a browser company doesn't like an idea, the 
W3C won't write it into a spec.  So, a little piece'o'crap guy like me 
doesn't really stand much of a chance at getting any changes made to 
either, does he?  (Ok, that's my self-pity thing for the day.) :)

I don't quite understand "define a class".  I apologize for lacking in 
this area of intelligence.  Do you mean extend an xhtml module?  Get out 
my DTD writer, and build a div-like element that has circular-type 
borders?  How do I do that, and then, what browser will ever honor them? 
  Will I be putting special "bent-browser" apps in all the student's and 
teacher's hands just to view this thing?  If I need to do all that, I 
might as well convert the thing to PDF and contaminate the world with a 
few more million of those things.  Ok, that was unfair.  I have a bias 
against non-content-searchable doc types. :)

> Anything beyond this is in the realm of styling, i.e. in order to 
> achieve the presentation of this meaning, you will have to look to CSS, 
> or some other hypothetical styling language. This styling will be able 
> to represent your arrows and circles and underlines in the visual 
> medium, and perhaps suitable representations for other media such as aural.

Arrows, in aural, equate to a teacher saying "Referring to the part of 
your assignment where you said (subject)",  as best I can tell.  Most 
aural assignments will be graded in aural as well, and an arrow is not 
an aural thing in its classic use.  "When you said THIS..." is an aural 
arrow... and it doesn't need z-rotation.  In aural, the assignment is 
often in aural, and so is its grading, likely.  I am trying to get the 
same abilities for HTML assignments.  I am trying to figure out how to 
get them graded in HTML.... in their native format.

> donna

Thanks Donna!  Excellent points!  I appreciate the response!  Wingy
Received on Saturday, 7 February 2004 13:04:00 UTC

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