W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-html@w3.org > February 2000

Re: "fighting it out between WGs" (was: inline CSS)

From: Murray Altheim <altheim@eng.sun.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:56:37 -0800
Message-ID: <38B34C65.281423A8@eng.sun.com>
CC: www-html@w3.org
Jelks Cabaniss wrote:
> Frank Boumphrey wrote:
> > I confess that during the development stages of a document i make great use
> > of inline styling, but when I have finished, I move it all out to the place
> > where IMO it needs to be, namely a style sheet!
> IMO, that's an excellent reason for keeping inline CSS.  A number of us do just
> that very thing.  Yes, inline CSS can be easily abused, but so can lots of
> things.  Do we deprecate everything that *can* be abused?

It's very common in industry to have multiple DTDs for multiple purposes,
authoring DTDs, interchange DTD, etc.

As I've said before, we include a Legacy module which has *all* the
cruft from HTML 4.0 (even <basefont>!), so build a DTD from it, use
it during your authoring, then move the style attribute stuff into
either an internal or external stylesheet and validate using XHTML 1.1.

The point is, we don't want XHTML 1.1 to be using the style attribute,
but there's all sorts of ways to create that transition strategy if
that's what you're truly after. I suspect much of the argument we've 
been hearing lately is to allow "mso-ignore: vglayout2".

I think some people are missing a good portion of the point of m12n:
you can create your own markup language to do the things you want. It's
not like we didn't supply a Legacy module, and I'll tell you, I went to
plenty of trouble to make it *easy* to create a DTD with it. I expect 
the two major browsers will continue to support the style attribute, 
especially the one we've heard so much from already. Just don't expect
endorsement from the HTML WG, who are trying to be good web citizens.
We believe that it's time to begin (as I've said before) walking the
talk that's been talked for several years, especially given evidence
that HTML (or what purports to be HTML) is being so heavily corrupted
by abuse of things like the style attribute, which deliberately or no
is capable of rendering large portions of the web inaccessible to 
those without the proper machine or human equipment and software.

Just to remind everyone what I"m talking about, here's it again (shield
any children in the room):

>   <TD align=left vAlign=top><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:rect id=_x0000_s1025
>   style="HEIGHT: 8.25pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 16.5pt; MARGIN-TOP: 3pt;
>   POSITION: absolute; WIDTH: 9pt; Z-INDEX: 1"
>   coordsize = "21600,21600" o:insetmode = "auto" filled = "f"
>   fillcolor = "winColor(1)" strokecolor = "winColor(1)"><v:fill
>   color2 = "winColor(17)"></v:fill><x:ClientData
>   ObjectType="Rect"><x:AutoFill>False</x:AutoFill>
>   </x:ClientData></v:rect><![endif]--><![if !vml]><span style='mso-
>   ignore:vglayout;position: absolute;z-index:0;margin-left:22px;
>   margin-top:4px;width:13px;height:12px'><img
>   width=13 height=12 src="./generic_req_files/image003.gif"
>   v:shapes="_x0000_s1025"></span><![endif]><SPAN
>   style="mso-ignore: vglayout2">

That *may* be markup, but it's hardly HTML.

Murray Altheim                            <mailto:altheim&#x40;eng.sun.com>
XML Technology Center
Sun Microsystems, Inc., MS MPK17-102, 1601 Willow Rd., Menlo Park, CA 94025

   the honey bee is sad and cross and wicked as a weasel 
   and when she perches on you boss she leaves a little measle -- archy
Received on Wednesday, 23 February 2000 02:37:28 UTC

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