Re[4]: <FIG> implies <P>?

Rodney Barnett (RBarnett@us.teltech.com)
Wed, 02 Aug 95 10:33:31 cst


Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 10:33:31 cst
From: "Rodney Barnett" <RBarnett@us.teltech.com>
Message-Id: <9507028073.AA807384604@smtpgwy.gen.teltech.com>
To: Ka-Ping Yee <kryee@novice.uwaterloo.ca>
Cc: www-html@www10.w3.org
Subject: Re[4]: <FIG> implies <P>? 

In message [1], Ka-Ping Yee wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, in message [2], Rodney Barnett wrote: > 
>> Why restrict this discussion to figures if <FIG> and <P> are peers?
>> Couldn't the mechanism above be generalized a little to allow textual
>> sidebars or embedded lists?  In other words, isn't this discussion really 
>> about taking two separate elements and expressing a containment
>> relationship between them?
>
>I'd definitely agree that more generalized thinking is called for. 
>(Though i wouldn't necessarily call this a containment relationship, 
>but a rendering suggestion to convey relation between figures and 
>text.)
[snip]
>[2] http://gummo.stanford.edu/html/hypermail/www-html-1995q3/0216.html

Okay, I think I was a bit hasty calling it a containment relationship; I 
had two things in mind that probably should be handled in different ways.  
In the case of textaul sidebars, I'd agree that it's a rendering suggestion 
and I like your suggestions (which I've not included here) for dealing with 
it.

However, I'm not sure that's the case with embedded lists.  On occasion, 
I've struggled with word procesors that force lists to be separated from 
the paragraph in which they're contained and was incorrectly thinking that 
FIG might be a compromise that expresses the relationship between the 
paragraph and the list without offending those who don't seem to want 
things nested within paragraphs (for reasons which I admittedly do not 
understand).  So, I'll pose this as a question (which I hope hasn't already 
been beaten to death somewhere along the way).  If I have a paragraph that 
looks something like

        Xxxx xxx xxxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxx xxxxx xxx xxx xxxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxx
    xxxxxx xxxxx xxx (1) xxxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx, (2) xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx 
    xxxxxx, (3) xxxxx xxxxxx. Yyyy yyyyy yyyy.

but I think it would be more effective if presented as

        Xxxx xxx xxxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxx xxxxx xxx xxx xxxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxx
    xxxxxx xxxxx xxx
            (1) xxxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx,
            (2) xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx,
            (3) xxxxx xxxxxx.
    Yyyy yyyyy yyyy.

how should I mark it up?  While, as the author, I'd be willing to allow 
either presentation (i.e., the style sheet could override my preference), 
in the latter view, I definitely would not want the normal whitespace 
inserted between paragraphs to be inserted between the list and the last 
line nor would I want the normal paragraph indentation to be applied to the 
last line.  With various word processors, the solution was to either embed 
a lot of presentational markup (i.e., line breaks and spaces) or to split 
the paragraph into 5 paragraphs of three different types.  Neither solution 
expresses the semantics while leaving the presentation flexible.  Is there 
a way that does so in HTML?

Rodney


[1] http://cdr.stanford.edu/html/hypermail/www-html-1995q3/0440.html