W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-forms@w3.org > March 2006

Re: XForms Editor Review

From: Stefano Debenedetti <ste@demaledetti.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:56:07 +0100
Message-ID: <44156BE7.30706@demaledetti.net>
To: Lars Oppermann <Lars.Oppermann@Sun.COM>
CC: www-forms@w3.org

Lars Oppermann ha scritto:
> Stefano Debenedetti wrote:
> 
>> I fail to see how can an office application claim to be a
>> "productivity" application if it cannot export to the web. (And I
>> don't even condider the possibility that an office application
>> exports in HTML instead than XHTML).
>>
> 
> I take that this is a rhetorical remark, and that you do not expect me
> to explain to you the productive tasks that can be handled with an
> application like OpenOffice.org without it being able to export
> XForms+XHTML. This would be off-topic for this list anyway.
> (BTW, OOo includes an XSLT based XHTML export filter)

It may be off-topic but it was a rhetorical remark much less than yours, I don't understand how can businesses and individuals who say: "let's NOT use the amazing value in best practices and applications under the web umbrella" be the first target of office productivity suites being developed now.

What company doesn't have an intranet? Who doesn't have a blog? Are those your primary targets?

I thought your primary targets were companies and users who already have office productivity suites (and know how to use them) and have intranets and blogs (and love them) and who lose a lot of time everyday only because those things aren't integrated (and hate this).

Of course I assume this must be related to why you lead the development of an office productivity suite and I don't, but that's not the point here, I speak as a user who thinks his use cases should be the first OO use cases, of course this opinion may spring out of a misleading and incomplete perception but yes I didn't assume you wanted to correct my perception.

It just is my opinion, what I think is non-constructive is to dub it before having understood it. Of course nobody is deemed to even read it, I can avoid non-constructive rhetorical remarks by myself very quickly even when they are shoot at me in hideous ways via much more invasive medias than a mailing list. I think other people on the list can do the same without anybody "help" them by saying "I won't answer to this 'cause it's noise to people reading".

Unless you really think this is offtopic here, in which case I am happy to gracefully shut up on the topic.
 
>> OO must do that to be an office productivity application.
>>
>> Unless its agenda is really "introduce rich declarative XML based
>> forms into the world fullstop".
> 
> 
> XML based forms have already been introduced to the world. They are
> quite new in the domain of office productivity apps. Also the MVC based
> approach to forms is new in that realm, since traditionally those forms
> had an implicit model, mostly defined by the form layout, and custom
> coded logic, implemented mostly by scripts.
> 
> The concepts introduced by XForms are very valuable even outside a web
> browser. Documents produced with the current XForms implementation
> include all the information that is required to translate them to
> XForms+XHTML. There is nothing preventing you from writing a filter,
> that outputs this particular combination. I bet a lot of other people
> would be interested in that too.
> 
> XForms goes to great lengths in establishing independence of the host
> language. Thus, the claim of an implementation being unusable because of
> the fact that it is not exporting XHTML+XForms can only be bogus. It
> might be unusable for your particular intend. I am sorry about that -
> others are using it in a quite productive manner though.

Yes, I am sorry, I should have put it more clear in my mail that office apps can be productive even in a non-web world and that my negation of that is only related to my perception of no real future in that market as I perceive the needs of both businesses and individuals having fully embraced the web way since a few years.

I mean: when competing office productivity suites integrate seamlessly with the web, will OO be competitive?

Only in the non-web world? 

Of course I don't assume you point the non-web world at me, I think the non-web forms world is less relevant to this list than discussing how far the XForms-based integration between web publishing and office document formats and productivity suites can go.

ciao
ste
Received on Monday, 13 March 2006 12:43:13 GMT

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