W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-forms@w3.org > November 2005

Re: AJAX vs. Xforms

From: Joern Turner <joern.turner@web.de>
Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 00:16:57 +0100
Message-ID: <436D3D69.5040308@web.de>
To: Elliotte Harold <elharo@metalab.unc.edu>
CC: Vincent Berger <vincent.berger@afp.com>, Caroline Jarrett <caroline.jarrett@effortmark.co.uk>, www-forms@w3.org

Elliotte Harold wrote:
> Vincent Berger wrote:
>> And, I'm quiet sure that, if someone doesn't know how to install 
>> plugins, he/she doesn't
>> know how to plug all that awful heap of wires behind the UC, install 
>> the games he saw in the neighborhood,
>> launch the DVD/Divx player, and above all, connect to the ISP !!!
>> With computer, you can't do something whithout a specialist, (or 
>> spending lot of nights on it)
> Exactly.
>> And in a opposite view, If some people are against open standard 
>> specifications, (XForms is one of them)
>> then we have a big problem.
> We're not against open standard specifications. We're against, poor 
> quality, incomplete, unreliable implementations of those specs. And 
> we're quite annoyed that a spec we actually like is crippled by the lack 
> of conformant, free-as-in-speech, multiplatform  implementations. We 
> hope for the day when that isn't the case, but we're realistic enough to 
> acknowledge that day isn't today and it isn't tomorrow either.

while i normally don't involve in disputes like this i can't keep quiet 
this time...

you asking for conformant, free-as-in-speech, multiplatform 
implementations but what are you willing to give for that? Everybody 
likes Open Source and free (of charge) implementations but hardly one 
likes to actively support projects that try to deliver those 
implementations be it with coding, publishing or (for gods sake) money.

Your harsh criticism on the state of XForm implementations feels 
impolite and undifferenciated to me. I know of two 
very-close-to-conformity, free-as-in-speech and multiplatform 
implementations which are coming from small companies that try to push 
the XForms waggon. Of course these don't have the funding of Firefox, 
Apache and the like and therefore only have limited resources to spend.

I'm talking of Orbeon and Chiba here and having spend nearly 5 years now 
implementing the XForms technology in the Chiba project i personally 
think that XForms is absolutely *here* and up to the task even if not 
all nifty details of the Spec. are absolutely ready. We have reference 
from several projects from research, banking, bpm and building 
industries that sucessfully managed to integrate Chiba with their 
applications and not just building some demo examples. Reducing the 
efforts of our developers and community to 'Crippleware' is IMHO not 
adequate. At least there *are* users that don't share your opinion and 
these build solutions with XForms and help to promote, improve and 
spread the technology and implementations.

If you really like XForms as you said you should provide more 
constructive criticism instead of just saying 'we hope for the day'. Any 
input regarding concrete problems with our implementation is welcome and 
to be honest essential for us. Without feedback from our community it 
would take considerable time longer to get ready. Everyone is invited to 
speed up that process. Feel free to contact us in case one day you 
should consider an XForms demo again.

Joern Turner
-Chiba project admin-

Received on Saturday, 5 November 2005 23:17:05 UTC

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