W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-forms@w3.org > June 2000

RE: XForms not enough

From: Joe Hewitt <jhewitt@zenimax.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:59:01 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <9AFACD51BE660E46B0A7249FAE39D244059E00@megatron.zenimax.com>
To: "'John Ky'" <hand@syd.speednet.com.au>, "'www-forms@w3.org'" <www-forms@w3.org>
I'm really tired of the sort of mediocre technology that we have to work
with on the web.
The web absolutely needs an integrated set of application building blocks.
I'm tired of static, page-driven sites, and the longer we stick with that
paradigm, the longer it will take for the web to reach the next level of

It's nice that XForms wants to be a clean extension to HTML.  But HTML
sucks.  I have a hard time justifying mediocre solutions in the interest of
lazy developers everywhere. XForms is looking like a mediocre solution.

Developers shouldn't have to be forced to develop application frameworks
entirely in Javascript.  Applications built in Javascript can get complex
and slow enough without having to have the entire framework in Javascript
too.  If the framework were an open standard, it could be implemented
natively in all browsers, and we could build apps that really work.  Look at
Mozilla as an example of this.

W3C should ask itself these questions:

1). Is the web moving towards a thicker client model? Yes.
2). Is it good to build a framework to support that model? Yes.
3). Is it good to build separate technologies that are kludgy when used
together? No.

This leads us to the conclusion that the framework itself should be
integrated.  I know W3C working groups try hard to work together, and that
XForms is working with the XSchema group, but before XForms can continue we
need a working group for an XUL-like language as well.  In fact, I think
XForms should have one working group for the data model, and another working
group for the presentation.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ky [mailto:hand@syd.speednet.com.au]
Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 1:06 AM
To: Joe Hewitt
Subject: Re: XForms not enough

My understanding of XForms is only cursory but it appears to me that
XForms will:

+ Need to operate in a heterogeneous environment consisting of devices
other than web browsers - some with limited capabilities.
+ Be simple to use and migrate easily from HTML Forms.

XForms cannot loose sight of its audience in the interest of integration.

Where I would like to see XForms develop is consistency with other
recommendations to improve interoperability.

If XUL/XBL could be used to implement the XForms recommendation
in full (when the recommendation eventuates) then that will surely
demonstrate the flexibility and extensibility of mozilla.  It would further
guarantee a high level of integration while maintaining XForms as a
sufficiently stand-alone technology.

So my argument is that XForms shouldn't become part of a larger
project, but it should be designed in a way that maximises its chances
of being used with or even implemented with other technologies such

Received on Friday, 9 June 2000 11:47:34 UTC

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