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Re: RDF Concepts - Definition of "Generalized RDF"

From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:58:02 -0500
Cc: "Peter F. Patel-Schneider" <pfpschneider@gmail.com>, www-archive <www-archive@w3.org>, David Wood <david@3roundstones.com>
Message-Id: <B003305F-CC25-4A66-AA5C-8F9D1EB4EAD3@ihmc.us>
To: David Booth <david@dbooth.org>

On Oct 22, 2013, at 11:02 PM, David Booth wrote:

> Well, Peter replied off list to me, ignoring my questions and essentially saying that he didn't think that this discussion was going anywhere good and suggesting that the WG simply vote on it.  So that wasn't helpful at all.  :(

That was very helpful. Right now, the WG is under extreme pressure to get the documents finalized. Niggling over trivial stylistic or  editorial details is neither useful nor appropriate. 

> Can anyone else fill in more rationale for keeping this definition in the Concepts spec instead of moving it to the Semantics spec where it is actually *used*?

As has already been pointed out, the rationale is that Concepts is the document which defines the basic ideas, and this is a basic idea. A similar rationale was used to put other definitions into Concepts.  Perhaps you do not find this rationale persuasive, but it is the rationale that was in fact used, so it is the answer to your question. 

Pat

> 
> This isn't a big enough issue that I would file a formal objection over it, but it is rather annoying to be summarily dissed instead of just answering the damn questions and stating the actual rationale.
> 
> thanks,
> David
> 
> On 10/22/2013 10:05 AM, David Booth wrote:
>> Hi Peter,
>> 
>> On 10/21/2013 06:48 PM, Peter F. Patel-Schneider wrote:
>>> Is this request supposed to be for me, or for the sender of the
>>> response?  I initially sent back a private response on this, but in the
>>> interests of time, I will answer with my personal feelings.
>> 
>> Yes, but apparently you missed my followup, as I didn't receive a
>> response to that.  My followup was:
>> [[
>> For concepts that are *used* then I would agree, but that concept is
>> *not* used in the RDF Concepts spec.  The RDF Semantics spec uses other
>> far more important concepts too, such as "denotes", but surely you would
>> not advocate moving those definitions to the RDF Concepts document?
>> ]]
>> 
>>> 
>>> The introduction of generalized RDF is in Concepts because Concepts is
>>> where RDF concepts are to be introduced.   Generalized RDF was called
>>> out as a worthy RDF concept because JSON-LD needed something to point to
>>> for its generalization of RDF.
>> 
>> And my followup said:
>> [[
>> That's an interesting catch-22, because the JSON-LD *justification* for
>> using the notion of generalized RDF was that it is defined in the RDF
>> specs, so we seem to have a circular justification going on here.
>> 
>> In what sense do you view the Concepts document as being a better
>> reference than the Semantics document?  Are you suggesting that the
>> definition *should* have more prominence than it would get in the
>> Semantics doc?  The problem with giving it more prominence is that
>> people start to misconstrue it as being a W3C standard on par with
>> standard RDF.  But generalized RDF has not gone through at all the same
>> level of rigor as standardized RDF -- no test cases, no interoperable
>> implementations, etc. -- and was not intended by the W3C to be promoted
>> as a W3C standard.  The fact that JSON-LD references that definition is
>> a bug, not a feature, IMO.
>> ]]
>> 
>> Bottom line: I'm not at all convinced by the rationale that I've heard
>> so far, that the Concepts document is a better place for this definition
>> than the Semantics document.  Is there more rationale that I've missed?
>>  Or do you disagree with my points above?  If so, what and why?
>> 
>> David
>> 
>>> 
>>> peter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/16/2013 10:10 AM, David Booth wrote:
>>>> Hi Peter,
>>>> 
>>>> The wording of this definition looks good to me, but why are you
>>>> opposed to moving it to the RDF Semantics document?  AFAICT, the term
>>>> is not used in the RDF Concepts document, but it *is* used in the RDF
>>>> Semantcs document. Also, moving it to RDF Semantics would give it less
>>>> visibility, which (to my mind) would be appropriate given that
>>>> standard RDF is what the W3C is intending to promote, rather than
>>>> generalized RDF.
>>>> 
>>>> David
>>>> 
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Re: RDF Concepts - Definition of "Generalized RDF"
>>>> Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:11:52 +0000
>>>> Resent-From: public-rdf-comments@w3.org
>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 09:11:18 -0400
>>>> From: David Wood <david@3roundstones.com>
>>>> To: David Booth <david@dbooth.org>
>>>> CC: RDF Comments <public-rdf-comments@w3.org>
>>>> 
>>>> Hi David,
>>>> 
>>>> This is an official response from the RDF Working Group regarding your
>>>> comment at [1] on the definition of "Generalized RDF".  Your comment
>>>> is being tracked at our ISSUE-147 [2].
>>>> 
>>>> The WG discussed your concerns at our 2 Oct telecon [3] and via email
>>>> [4]. Those discussions resulted in a decision to leave the definition
>>>> of "generalized RDF" in RDF 1.1 Concepts, but to change the definition
>>>> to the following:
>>>> [[
>>>> Generalized RDF triples, graphs, and datasets differ from normative
>>>> RDF triples, graphs, and datasets only by allowing IRIs, blank
>>>> nodes and literals to appear anywhere as subject, predicate, object or
>>>> graph name.
>>>> ]]
>>>> 
>>>> My action to make the editorial changes was tracked at [5].
>>>> 
>>>> The updated section 7 is available in the current editors' draft [6].
>>>> 
>>>> Please advise the working group whether this change is acceptable to
>>>> you by responding to this message.  Thank you for your participation.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dave
>>>> --
>>>> http://about.me/david_wood
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [1]
>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2013Oct/0006.html
>>>> 
>>>> [2] ISSUE-147: https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/147
>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/rdf-wg/2013-10-09#line0228
>>>> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Oct/0030.html
>>>> [5] ACTION-309: https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/309
>>>> [6]
>>>> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-generalized-rdf
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 

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Received on Wednesday, 23 October 2013 14:58:29 UTC

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