W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-archive@w3.org > April 2010

Re: Removal of other semantic elements

From: Shelley Powers <shelley.just@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:33:01 -0500
Message-ID: <x2p643cc0271004051833l40298be7tad144e6e6b0a843c@mail.gmail.com>
To: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>
Cc: "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>, www-archive <www-archive@w3.org>
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org> wrote:
> Hi, Shelley and Tab-
> Tab, please refrain from using words with negative connotations like
> "pollute".  We know what you meant, but there is a more polite way to say
> that.... something like, "Please be mindful to stay on topic for the list
> you are emailing (in this case, www-style), or trim the CC list accordingly"
> would have been a nicer way to phrase it.  Also, as frustrated as you may
> be, describing someone's contributions as "ridiculousness" in public is
> impolite and incendiary (and ridiculous).  You know better than that.
> Shelley, Tab is correct that your response to my CSS-specific reply on the
> topic of stylable controls (which I clearly labeled "CCing CSS list") was
> not pertinent to the CSS list, and should have been redirected; you took an
> opportunity to contribute in a positive manner and used it to simply
> complain.  Your reaction to Tab, and name-calling on Twitter, is not an
> appropriate response for participation in W3C, and doesn't help foster a
> positive work environment.  Tab may have been a bit impolite, but your
> reaction seems rather extreme to me.  In the future, please give people the
> benefit of the doubt and act accordingly.  It's very hard to ignore slights;
> it's also very important.

Doug, it would have been better if you didn't intervene in this. Two
people are having an angry exchange. It will, by it's very nature,
dissipate on its own, especially when it's in a neutral environment,
such as www-archive. It was, in fact, beginning to dissipate, if the
length of time between emails wasn't an indicator for you.

I disagree about my response. I responded to your question, and I did
specifically discuss the CSS aspect of the elements. I did not
complain, I stated that the problem with the new elements is that none
of them are stylable, that they are going to generate a plethora of
browser custom CSS attributes, such as -moz and -o. Your
interpretation of this as a complaint is based on your personal
opinion. Assume that my response and the cc to the group was based on
a courtesy, not something negative.

My response was based on the original discussion, to which you
interjected your email. Yours and Tab's response otherwise made
unwarranted assumptions.

> We want you both to participate, and we want everyone to feel like they are
> getting the respect they deserve.  But the tone of these emails makes this
> difficult.  We all get frustrated sometimes.  When I find myself
> particularly vexed, I will ask my girlfriend or someone else to read my
> emails to make sure the tone is reasonable, or I will write the email, then
> wait a few hours to review and revise it.  Perhaps this might help you, too.

Doug, I'm sure your girlfriend is very helpful to you, but again, it
would have been better if you had just let this exchange go. Make an
assumption that adults don't particularly cared to be lectured. Also,
as friendly advice, you do tend to adopt a paternalist tone when you
lecture, though I'm sure you don't mean to.

> If you have not already done so, please watch this video on "How Open Source
> Projects Survive Poisonous People" to understand the impact individuals'
> attitudes and actions have on collaborative projects:
>  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645

> I don't think there are "poisonous people", I think there is poisonous
> behavior; I don't think either of you are at that point, but your tone is
> too negative for productive contribution.  I am confident that you are both
> genuine in your desire to help make the Web better, so I'm asking you to
> calm down.

I have very real concerns about Tab's email, particularly when I found
out that though he told me to discontinue "polluting" the www-style
group, he didn't send an email with the same request to John Foliot,
and I'm assuming not to Maciej, either. However, both their emails are
much more off topic for the www-style email list than mine.

Tab's email to me is actually not his first private communication to
me, and I have told him in the past, to restrict his communications to
me to public communication channels, only. Hence my response on this
public www-archive channel.

You should understand all the facts before entering a discussion
between two people. And the next time, you might want to let it go for
the night, and then only interceded if the parties are still
continuing in the morning.

Just a  suggestion.

> Regards-
> -Doug Schepers
> W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs


> Shelley Powers wrote (on 4/5/10 3:41 PM):
>> On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 12:41 PM, Tab Atkins Jr.<jackalmage@gmail.com>
>>  wrote:
>>>  Um, what?  It was a simple request.  I even put a smilie at the end to
>>>  make sure the correct intention, that of a helpful correction, was
>>>  sent over the wire.
>>>  Chill, Shelley.
>> That it's seemingly OK for Doug to cc the list, but was not OK for me
>> to reply to his email, and also include the list, was rude.
>> That you termed my email "polluting" when it was focused on relevant
>> topic material, but considered Doug's email was OK, was also rude.
>> That you would instruct me to pay attention to the cc list, like I'm
>> some kind of newbie in this forum was rude.
>> And if I were to tell you where you can shove your smiley, why then my
>> statement would also be rude. So I won't.
>> Shelley
>> PS Notice lack of smiley
>>>  ~TJ
>>>  On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Shelley Powers<shelley.just@gmail.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>>>  This was the rudest email I have received related to W3C efforts.
>>>>  You have personal problems with me. Frankly, that's your problem. If
>>>>  you can't maintain a professional attitude with me, then don't
>>>>  communicate with me, period.
>>>>  Shelley
>>>>  On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Tab Atkins Jr.<jackalmage@gmail.com>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>  Please don't pollute the www-style list with something entirely
>>>>>  unrelated to it.  I know that Doug was the one that originally CCed
>>>>>  us, and that was valid.  Just pay attention to who's in the CC box.
>>>>>  ^_^
>>>>>  ~TJ
Received on Tuesday, 6 April 2010 01:33:34 UTC

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