W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > wai-xtech@w3.org > February 2009

Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:59:58 -0800
Message-ID: <63df84f0902251159x32d7ed67h2f98d688eb70b8f5@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Robert J Burns <rob@robburns.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, Steve Axthelm <steveax@pobox.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org, janina@rednote.net, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> wrote:
> I don't think it is possible to associate a <p> programatically</p to a
> table.  It might be possible to designate someting inside the table to surve
> the same purpurpose as @summary though.

First off, i notice that you didn't answer my question *why* this is needed.

Second, it seems like you didn't understand my suggestions for how to
associate a <p> with the <table>.

What I'm suggesting is that we could add an attribute on <table> to
point to the element containing the summary. Such as:

<p id="thisIsTheSummary">
  Summary goes here
<table summary-in="thisIsTheSummary">

This way the AT client can find the summary associated with a particular table.

> I also want to point out that I consider it a grose miss use of @summary=""
> required to pass a test as well, miss use.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

> I appreciate the efforts on this but also hear and echo the conerns of
> others that we *really* need to have a good replacement or modify @summary
> to do what we need for it to do.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

/ Jonas

> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> <p> this is a layout table.
>> <p> there is no summary for this table...
>> Now, where was that little d?
> I'm sorry, I don't understand the question? Could you elaborate?
>> Not picking on you but we need programatic association and clear markup
>> which @summary provides today.
> This would indeed not be the case with the proposal to have a separate
> paragraph (marked up with a <p>) before or after the table.
> Could you elaborate on why this is needed?
> If we added an attribute like summaryfor="idOfTable" to the <p>, would
> that address all the problems you have with this proposed solution? Or
> adding a summaryIn="idOfPara" on the <table>. I'm not suggesting this
> as a solution, merely trying to understand your complaints with the
> <p> solution.
> Also, this problem (if it indeed is a problem) does not seem to exist
> with any of the other solutions proposed. Maciej listed many more than
> I did.
> / Jonas
>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> What actually mystifies me and I've been following every nuounce of the
>>> conversation over a long span on several lists is that there has not been
>>> shown to be anything satisfactorily demonstrated to replace what can be
>>> and
>>> has been used as such an accessibility enhancing attribute as @summary.
>> Two suggestions I've seen so far are:
>> * Use a <p> above the table describing the contents of the table.
>> * Change the definition of <caption> to not just be the title of the
>> table to also be allowed to contain a summary.
>> Both these have the advantage if adding accessibility to all users
>> rather than just ones that use AT clients.
>> Another suggestion I've thought about is using the table@title
>> attribute. Title attributes are already often used to add descriptive
>> information out-of-flow. And title attributes are generally available
>> in visual UAs in the form of tooltips.
>> / Jonas
>> --
>> Jonnie Appleseed
>> with his
>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>> reducing technology's disabilities
>> one byte at a time
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 20:00:35 UTC

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