W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > wai-xtech@w3.org > February 2007

Re: popups to provide more information

From: T.V Raman <raman@google.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:50:03 -0800
Message-ID: <17887.3371.96788.637039@retriever.corp.google.com>
To: aleventh@us.ibm.com
Cc: raman@google.com, Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, gez.lemon@gmail.com, wai-xtech@w3.org


the keybinding is in the noise. 

Aaron M Leventhal writes:
 > There is another difference between links and buttons though.
 > 
 > Links don't accept the space bar to activate them. Buttons do.
 > 
 > Yes semantically they're similar and one could inherit from the other in 
 > the wairole hierarchy, but it needs it's own role.
 > 
 > - Aaron
 > 
 > Aaron Leventhal
 > IBM web accessibility architect
 > Voice: 781-583-4083
 > Tie line: 364-5945
 > http://www.mozilla.org/access
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com> 
 > Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
 > 02/22/2007 07:03 PM
 > 
 > To
 > gez.lemon@gmail.com
 > cc
 > Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, wai-xtech@w3.org
 > Subject
 > Re: popups to provide more information
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > Better yet -- but along the same lines, in the Web context, it
 > might be useful to think of role:link as a specialized "button".
 > 
 > Button is actually a "trigger" --- a thing that when activated
 > executes an action.
 > 
 > Links on the Web -- including html:a -- the beloved anchor
 > element -- are in fact specialized triggers 
 > that have a default event handler for  event dom:activate; the
 > event handler follows the link --- and since this is a "builtin"
 > behavior, devleopers never need write that event handler.
 > 
 > Modeled this way, anchor links whose default behavior gets
 > overridden by an onclick attribute i.e. the 
 > <a href="#" onclick="javascript:mumble">click me </a>
 > also fall into place correctly.
 > 
 > Aside: I still consider the above href="#" an abomination --- but
 > one that is sadly here to stay.
 > 
 > Gez Lemon writes:
 >  > 
 >  > Hi Becky,
 >  > 
 >  > > One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link or a
 >  > > button.  The yahoo example implements this as a link. I would surmise 
 > that
 >  > > is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available. 
 > But
 >  > > the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double 
 > down
 >  > > arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.   My first 
 > question is
 >  > > should this be given a role of link or button?   Using button gives 
 > the
 >  > > opportunity to also include the haspopup property.
 >  > 
 >  > I think in this case, a link would be the correct choice. I think
 >  > buttons should be reserved for explicit commands, such as "Sort",
 >  > "Search", "Filter", etc, and that links are the correct choice when
 >  > fetching a resource. Web applications tend to blur this distinction,
 >  > so although clicking on a link in this example executes the command to
 >  > gather the collection of related articles, as far as the visitor is
 >  > concerned, it's fetching a resource (the collection of articles). I
 >  > favour using a role of link, and allowing the haspopup property on
 >  > anchor elements.
 >  > 
 >  > Best regards,
 >  > 
 >  > Gez
 >  > 
 >  > On 22/02/07, Becky Gibson <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com> wrote:
 >  > >
 >  > > I'm going to borrow an example from Yahoo to discuss the appropriate 
 > roles
 >  > > and behavior to use for popups.   Some yahoo pages have a link that 
 > will
 >  > > use Ajax to make a search request for more information and display 
 > the
 >  > > resulting links in a popup on the page.  Find and click on the Iran 
 > and
 >  > > Iraq links in this page:
 >  > > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_070215121462.
 >  > > A popup is displayed that contains more information. Focus is not put 
 > into
 >  > > the popup but with focus on the link that invokes the popup you can 
 > tab
 >  > > into the bottom of the popup by pressing shift-tab.  The popup 
 > contains
 >  > > help and close links at the top of the popup as well as links to more
 >  > > information and some structural links.
 >  > >
 >  > > This is probably a good example for ARIA live regions but since 
 > support
 >  > > for those will not be available until Firefox 3 I would like to 
 > consider
 >  > > implementations that can be used in Firefox today.
 >  > >
 >  > > One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link or a
 >  > > button.  The yahoo example implements this as a link. I would surmise 
 > that
 >  > > is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available. 
 > But
 >  > > the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double 
 > down
 >  > > arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.   My first 
 > question is
 >  > > should this be given a role of link or button?   Using button gives 
 > the
 >  > > opportunity to also include the haspopup property.  Currently 
 > haspopup is
 >  > > only available on buttons and menus.  I think we should encourage 
 > ARIA to
 >  > > allow the haspopup property on any element.
 >  > >
 >  > > My other proposed behavior for this type of more information popup 
 > is:
 >  > > 1) the popup should get the role of dialog
 >  > > 2) focus should be placed into the popup when it is opened
 >  > > 3) the popup should be made modal via scripting - focus can not leave 
 > the
 >  > > dialog except by clicking another link or closing it
 >  > > 4) the popup can be closed by pressing escape or via a close button
 >  > >
 >  > > thoughts?
 >  > >
 >  > > Becky Gibson
 >  > > Web Accessibility Architect
 >  > >
 >  > > IBM Emerging Internet Technologies
 >  > > 5 Technology Park Drive
 >  > > Westford, MA 01886
 >  > > Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101
 >  > > Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com
 >  > >
 >  > >
 >  > >
 >  > >
 >  > 
 >  > 
 >  > -- 
 >  > _____________________________
 >  > Supplement your vitamins
 >  > http://juicystudio.com
 > 
 > -- 
 > Best Regards,
 > --raman
 > 
 > Title:  Research Scientist 
 > Email:  raman@google.com
 > WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
 > Google: tv+raman 
 > GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
 > PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">There is another difference between
 > links and buttons though.</font>
 > <br>
 > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Links don't accept the space bar to
 > activate them. Buttons do.</font>
 > <br>
 > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Yes semantically they're similar and
 > one could inherit from the other in the wairole hierarchy, but it needs
 > it's own role.</font>
 > <br>
 > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">- Aaron</font>
 > <br>
 > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Aaron Leventhal<br>
 > IBM web accessibility architect<br>
 > Voice: 781-583-4083<br>
 > Tie line: 364-5945<br>
 > http://www.mozilla.org/access<br>
 > </font>
 > <br>
 > <br>
 > <br>
 > <table width=100%>
 > <tr valign=top>
 > <td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;T.V Raman&quot; &lt;raman@google.com&gt;</b>
 > </font>
 > <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org</font>
 > <p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/22/2007 07:03 PM</font>
 > <td width=59%>
 > <table width=100%>
 > <tr valign=top>
 > <td>
 > <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
 > <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">gez.lemon@gmail.com</font>
 > <tr valign=top>
 > <td>
 > <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
 > <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, wai-xtech@w3.org</font>
 > <tr valign=top>
 > <td>
 > <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
 > <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: popups to provide more information</font></table>
 > <br>
 > <table>
 > <tr valign=top>
 > <td>
 > <td></table>
 > <br></table>
 > <br>
 > <br>
 > <br><tt><font size=2><br>
 > <br>
 > Better yet -- but along the same lines, in the Web context, it<br>
 > might be useful to think of role:link as a specialized &quot;button&quot;.<br>
 > <br>
 > Button is actually a &quot;trigger&quot; --- a thing that when activated<br>
 > executes an action.<br>
 > <br>
 > Links on the Web -- including html:a -- the beloved anchor<br>
 > element -- are in fact specialized triggers <br>
 > that have a default event handler for &nbsp;event dom:activate; the<br>
 > event handler follows the link --- and since this is a &quot;builtin&quot;<br>
 > behavior, devleopers never need write that event handler.<br>
 > <br>
 > Modeled this way, anchor links whose default behavior gets<br>
 > overridden by an onclick attribute i.e. the <br>
 > &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; onclick=&quot;javascript:mumble&quot;&gt;click
 > me &lt;/a&gt;<br>
 > also fall into place correctly.<br>
 > <br>
 > Aside: I still consider the above href=&quot;#&quot; an abomination ---
 > but<br>
 > one that is sadly here to stay.<br>
 > <br>
 > Gez Lemon writes:<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; Hi Becky,<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; &gt; One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link
 > or a<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; button. &nbsp;The yahoo example implements this as a link. I
 > would surmise that<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available.
 > &nbsp;But<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double
 > down<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup. &nbsp; My
 > first question is<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; should this be given a role of link or button? &nbsp; Using
 > button gives the<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; opportunity to also include the haspopup property.<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; I think in this case, a link would be the correct choice. I think<br>
 >  &gt; buttons should be reserved for explicit commands, such as &quot;Sort&quot;,<br>
 >  &gt; &quot;Search&quot;, &quot;Filter&quot;, etc, and that links are the
 > correct choice when<br>
 >  &gt; fetching a resource. Web applications tend to blur this distinction,<br>
 >  &gt; so although clicking on a link in this example executes the command
 > to<br>
 >  &gt; gather the collection of related articles, as far as the visitor
 > is<br>
 >  &gt; concerned, it's fetching a resource (the collection of articles).
 > I<br>
 >  &gt; favour using a role of link, and allowing the haspopup property on<br>
 >  &gt; anchor elements.<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; Best regards,<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; Gez<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; On 22/02/07, Becky Gibson &lt;Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com&gt; wrote:<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; I'm going to borrow an example from Yahoo to discuss the appropriate
 > roles<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; and behavior to use for popups. &nbsp; Some yahoo pages have
 > a link that will<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; use Ajax to make a search request for more information and display
 > the<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; resulting links in a popup on the page. &nbsp;Find and click
 > on the Iran and<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; Iraq links in this page:<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_070215121462.<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; A popup is displayed that contains more information. Focus is
 > not put into<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; the popup but with focus on the link that invokes the popup
 > you can tab<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; into the bottom of the popup by pressing shift-tab. &nbsp;The
 > popup contains<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; help and close links at the top of the popup as well as links
 > to more<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; information and some structural links.<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; This is probably a good example for ARIA live regions but since
 > support<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; for those will not be available until Firefox 3 I would like
 > to consider<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; implementations that can be used in Firefox today.<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link
 > or a<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; button. &nbsp;The yahoo example implements this as a link. I
 > would surmise that<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available.
 > &nbsp;But<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double
 > down<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup. &nbsp; My
 > first question is<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; should this be given a role of link or button? &nbsp; Using
 > button gives the<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; opportunity to also include the haspopup property. &nbsp;Currently
 > haspopup is<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; only available on buttons and menus. &nbsp;I think we should
 > encourage ARIA to<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; allow the haspopup property on any element.<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; My other proposed behavior for this type of more information
 > popup is:<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; 1) the popup should get the role of dialog<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; 2) focus should be placed into the popup when it is opened<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; 3) the popup should be made modal via scripting - focus can
 > not leave the<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; dialog except by clicking another link or closing it<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; 4) the popup can be closed by pressing escape or via a close
 > button<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; thoughts?<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; Becky Gibson<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; Web Accessibility Architect<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; IBM Emerging Internet Technologies<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; 5 Technology Park Drive<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; Westford, MA 01886<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101<br>
 >  &gt; &gt; Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; <br>
 >  &gt; -- <br>
 >  &gt; _____________________________<br>
 >  &gt; Supplement your vitamins<br>
 >  &gt; http://juicystudio.com<br>
 > <br>
 > -- <br>
 > Best Regards,<br>
 > --raman<br>
 > <br>
 > Title: &nbsp;Research Scientist &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
 > Email: &nbsp;raman@google.com<br>
 > WWW: &nbsp; &nbsp;http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/<br>
 > Google: tv+raman <br>
 > GTalk: &nbsp;raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com<br>
 > PGP: &nbsp; &nbsp;http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc<br>
 > <br>
 > <br>
 > </font></tt>
 > <br>

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist      
Email:  raman@google.com
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman 
GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
Received on Friday, 23 February 2007 15:52:25 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 27 April 2012 13:15:42 GMT