W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > wai-xtech@w3.org > February 2007

Re: popups to provide more information

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:30:42 -0500
Message-Id: <D22A6665-04F7-4BD0-A128-6F76C74FDAA5@comcast.net>
Cc: aleventh@us.ibm.com, Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, gez.lemon@gmail.com, wai-xtech@w3.org
To: T.V Raman <raman@google.com>

TV, What does this mean?

On Feb 23, 2007, at 10:50 AM, T.V Raman wrote:



the keybinding is in the noise.

Aaron M Leventhal writes:
> There is another difference between links and buttons though.
>
> Links don't accept the space bar to activate them. Buttons do.
>
> Yes semantically they're similar and one could inherit from the  
> other in
> the wairole hierarchy, but it needs it's own role.
>
> - Aaron
>
> Aaron Leventhal
> IBM web accessibility architect
> Voice: 781-583-4083
> Tie line: 364-5945
> http://www.mozilla.org/access
>
>
>
>
> "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>
> Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
> 02/22/2007 07:03 PM
>
> To
> gez.lemon@gmail.com
> cc
> Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, wai-xtech@w3.org
> Subject
> Re: popups to provide more information
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Better yet -- but along the same lines, in the Web context, it
> might be useful to think of role:link as a specialized "button".
>
> Button is actually a "trigger" --- a thing that when activated
> executes an action.
>
> Links on the Web -- including html:a -- the beloved anchor
> element -- are in fact specialized triggers
> that have a default event handler for  event dom:activate; the
> event handler follows the link --- and since this is a "builtin"
> behavior, devleopers never need write that event handler.
>
> Modeled this way, anchor links whose default behavior gets
> overridden by an onclick attribute i.e. the
> <a href="#" onclick="javascript:mumble">click me </a>
> also fall into place correctly.
>
> Aside: I still consider the above href="#" an abomination --- but
> one that is sadly here to stay.
>
> Gez Lemon writes:
>>
>> Hi Becky,
>>
>>> One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link or a
>>> button.  The yahoo example implements this as a link. I would  
>>> surmise
> that
>>> is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available.
> But
>>> the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double
> down
>>> arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.   My first
> question is
>>> should this be given a role of link or button?   Using button gives
> the
>>> opportunity to also include the haspopup property.
>>
>> I think in this case, a link would be the correct choice. I think
>> buttons should be reserved for explicit commands, such as "Sort",
>> "Search", "Filter", etc, and that links are the correct choice when
>> fetching a resource. Web applications tend to blur this distinction,
>> so although clicking on a link in this example executes the  
>> command to
>> gather the collection of related articles, as far as the visitor is
>> concerned, it's fetching a resource (the collection of articles). I
>> favour using a role of link, and allowing the haspopup property on
>> anchor elements.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Gez
>>
>> On 22/02/07, Becky Gibson <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm going to borrow an example from Yahoo to discuss the appropriate
> roles
>>> and behavior to use for popups.   Some yahoo pages have a link that
> will
>>> use Ajax to make a search request for more information and display
> the
>>> resulting links in a popup on the page.  Find and click on the Iran
> and
>>> Iraq links in this page:
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ 
>>> iraq_070215121462.
>>> A popup is displayed that contains more information. Focus is not  
>>> put
> into
>>> the popup but with focus on the link that invokes the popup you can
> tab
>>> into the bottom of the popup by pressing shift-tab.  The popup
> contains
>>> help and close links at the top of the popup as well as links to  
>>> more
>>> information and some structural links.
>>>
>>> This is probably a good example for ARIA live regions but since
> support
>>> for those will not be available until Firefox 3 I would like to
> consider
>>> implementations that can be used in Firefox today.
>>>
>>> One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link or a
>>> button.  The yahoo example implements this as a link. I would  
>>> surmise
> that
>>> is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available.
> But
>>> the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double
> down
>>> arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.   My first
> question is
>>> should this be given a role of link or button?   Using button gives
> the
>>> opportunity to also include the haspopup property.  Currently
> haspopup is
>>> only available on buttons and menus.  I think we should encourage
> ARIA to
>>> allow the haspopup property on any element.
>>>
>>> My other proposed behavior for this type of more information popup
> is:
>>> 1) the popup should get the role of dialog
>>> 2) focus should be placed into the popup when it is opened
>>> 3) the popup should be made modal via scripting - focus can not  
>>> leave
> the
>>> dialog except by clicking another link or closing it
>>> 4) the popup can be closed by pressing escape or via a close button
>>>
>>> thoughts?
>>>
>>> Becky Gibson
>>> Web Accessibility Architect
>>>
>>> IBM Emerging Internet Technologies
>>> 5 Technology Park Drive
>>> Westford, MA 01886
>>> Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101
>>> Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> _____________________________
>> Supplement your vitamins
>> http://juicystudio.com
>
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --raman
>
> Title:  Research Scientist
> Email:  raman@google.com
> WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
> Google: tv+raman
> GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
> PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
>
>
>
>
> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">There is another difference between
> links and buttons though.</font>
> <br>
> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Links don't accept the space bar to
> activate them. Buttons do.</font>
> <br>
> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Yes semantically they're similar  
> and
> one could inherit from the other in the wairole hierarchy, but it  
> needs
> it's own role.</font>
> <br>
> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">- Aaron</font>
> <br>
> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Aaron Leventhal<br>
> IBM web accessibility architect<br>
> Voice: 781-583-4083<br>
> Tie line: 364-5945<br>
> http://www.mozilla.org/access<br>
> </font>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <table width=100%>
> <tr valign=top>
> <td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;T.V  
> Raman&quot; &lt;raman@google.com&gt;</b>
> </font>
> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: wai-xtech- 
> request@w3.org</font>
> <p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/22/2007 07:03 PM</font>
> <td width=59%>
> <table width=100%>
> <tr valign=top>
> <td>
> <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
> <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">gez.lemon@gmail.com</font>
> <tr valign=top>
> <td>
> <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
> <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com,  
> wai-xtech@w3.org</font>
> <tr valign=top>
> <td>
> <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
> <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: popups to provide more  
> information</font></table>
> <br>
> <table>
> <tr valign=top>
> <td>
> <td></table>
> <br></table>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br><tt><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> Better yet -- but along the same lines, in the Web context, it<br>
> might be useful to think of role:link as a specialized  
> &quot;button&quot;.<br>
> <br>
> Button is actually a &quot;trigger&quot; --- a thing that when  
> activated<br>
> executes an action.<br>
> <br>
> Links on the Web -- including html:a -- the beloved anchor<br>
> element -- are in fact specialized triggers <br>
> that have a default event handler for &nbsp;event dom:activate;  
> the<br>
> event handler follows the link --- and since this is a  
> &quot;builtin&quot;<br>
> behavior, devleopers never need write that event handler.<br>
> <br>
> Modeled this way, anchor links whose default behavior gets<br>
> overridden by an onclick attribute i.e. the <br>
> &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot;  
> onclick=&quot;javascript:mumble&quot;&gt;click
> me &lt;/a&gt;<br>
> also fall into place correctly.<br>
> <br>
> Aside: I still consider the above href=&quot;#&quot; an abomination  
> ---
> but<br>
> one that is sadly here to stay.<br>
> <br>
> Gez Lemon writes:<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; Hi Becky,<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; &gt; One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as  
> a link
> or a<br>
>  &gt; &gt; button. &nbsp;The yahoo example implements this as a  
> link. I
> would surmise that<br>
>  &gt; &gt; is done so the link will still work if scripting is not  
> available.
> &nbsp;But<br>
>  &gt; &gt; the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a  
> small double
> down<br>
>  &gt; &gt; arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.  
> &nbsp; My
> first question is<br>
>  &gt; &gt; should this be given a role of link or button? &nbsp; Using
> button gives the<br>
>  &gt; &gt; opportunity to also include the haspopup property.<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; I think in this case, a link would be the correct choice. I  
> think<br>
>  &gt; buttons should be reserved for explicit commands, such as  
> &quot;Sort&quot;,<br>
>  &gt; &quot;Search&quot;, &quot;Filter&quot;, etc, and that links  
> are the
> correct choice when<br>
>  &gt; fetching a resource. Web applications tend to blur this  
> distinction,<br>
>  &gt; so although clicking on a link in this example executes the  
> command
> to<br>
>  &gt; gather the collection of related articles, as far as the visitor
> is<br>
>  &gt; concerned, it's fetching a resource (the collection of  
> articles).
> I<br>
>  &gt; favour using a role of link, and allowing the haspopup  
> property on<br>
>  &gt; anchor elements.<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; Best regards,<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; Gez<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; On 22/02/07, Becky Gibson  
> &lt;Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com&gt; wrote:<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; I'm going to borrow an example from Yahoo to discuss the  
> appropriate
> roles<br>
>  &gt; &gt; and behavior to use for popups. &nbsp; Some yahoo pages  
> have
> a link that will<br>
>  &gt; &gt; use Ajax to make a search request for more information  
> and display
> the<br>
>  &gt; &gt; resulting links in a popup on the page. &nbsp;Find and  
> click
> on the Iran and<br>
>  &gt; &gt; Iraq links in this page:<br>
>  &gt; &gt; http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ 
> iraq_070215121462.<br>
>  &gt; &gt; A popup is displayed that contains more information.  
> Focus is
> not put into<br>
>  &gt; &gt; the popup but with focus on the link that invokes the popup
> you can tab<br>
>  &gt; &gt; into the bottom of the popup by pressing shift-tab.  
> &nbsp;The
> popup contains<br>
>  &gt; &gt; help and close links at the top of the popup as well as  
> links
> to more<br>
>  &gt; &gt; information and some structural links.<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; This is probably a good example for ARIA live regions  
> but since
> support<br>
>  &gt; &gt; for those will not be available until Firefox 3 I would  
> like
> to consider<br>
>  &gt; &gt; implementations that can be used in Firefox today.<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as  
> a link
> or a<br>
>  &gt; &gt; button. &nbsp;The yahoo example implements this as a  
> link. I
> would surmise that<br>
>  &gt; &gt; is done so the link will still work if scripting is not  
> available.
> &nbsp;But<br>
>  &gt; &gt; the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a  
> small double
> down<br>
>  &gt; &gt; arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.  
> &nbsp; My
> first question is<br>
>  &gt; &gt; should this be given a role of link or button? &nbsp; Using
> button gives the<br>
>  &gt; &gt; opportunity to also include the haspopup property.  
> &nbsp;Currently
> haspopup is<br>
>  &gt; &gt; only available on buttons and menus. &nbsp;I think we  
> should
> encourage ARIA to<br>
>  &gt; &gt; allow the haspopup property on any element.<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; My other proposed behavior for this type of more  
> information
> popup is:<br>
>  &gt; &gt; 1) the popup should get the role of dialog<br>
>  &gt; &gt; 2) focus should be placed into the popup when it is  
> opened<br>
>  &gt; &gt; 3) the popup should be made modal via scripting - focus can
> not leave the<br>
>  &gt; &gt; dialog except by clicking another link or closing it<br>
>  &gt; &gt; 4) the popup can be closed by pressing escape or via a  
> close
> button<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; thoughts?<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; Becky Gibson<br>
>  &gt; &gt; Web Accessibility Architect<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt; IBM Emerging Internet Technologies<br>
>  &gt; &gt; 5 Technology Park Drive<br>
>  &gt; &gt; Westford, MA 01886<br>
>  &gt; &gt; Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101<br>
>  &gt; &gt; Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; &gt;<br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; <br>
>  &gt; -- <br>
>  &gt; _____________________________<br>
>  &gt; Supplement your vitamins<br>
>  &gt; http://juicystudio.com<br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> Best Regards,<br>
> --raman<br>
> <br>
> Title: &nbsp;Research Scientist &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
> Email: &nbsp;raman@google.com<br>
> WWW: &nbsp; &nbsp;http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/<br>
> Google: tv+raman <br>
> GTalk: &nbsp;raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com<br>
> PGP: &nbsp; &nbsp;http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> </font></tt>
> <br>

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist
Email:  raman@google.com
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman
GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
Received on Friday, 23 February 2007 23:31:08 GMT

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