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Re: argument for only ONE set of radio button navigation keys

From: Pete Brunet <brunet@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:08:16 -0500
To: wai-xtech@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF6544B4D3.02844551-ON86257341.0076779A-86257341.00799A1A@us.ibm.com>
>up and down, left and right are all in the eye of the beholder,
>and the orientation of characters in a written language -- that
>is why, as a user, i would rather have ONE set of keys defined 
>for radio button behavior -- regardless of visual orientation --
>and one set of keys reserved for expansion and collapsing tree
>views...  it's a question of seperating presentation from 
>content, and reducing the burden on the user...
Hi Gregory, I don't understand the burden.  It was years before I 
realized, as a sighted user, that I could use either pair.  It was never a 
burden to not know of the missing pair.

>besides, those
>with neuropathy and any other tactile disabilities (such as 
>myself, he quickly added in an attempt at "full disclosure")
>i would rather have a 4 key arrangement limited to 2, as i 
>don't want to move selection just because i can't feel which
>key is which, and if i make an error (using leftarrow instead
>of up arrow, i don't want the widget making decisions for me 
>which i never intended to communicate to it
That might be a good argument for your position.  I've not heard of this 
issue being raised before.  If this is a issue, what techniques are used 
to resolve the problem?  Would those techniques serve just as well in the 
case we are discussing?  Is there data from the a11y UX community that can 
be used to bolster your position?

I have often seen surveys using groups of radio buttons arranged 
horizontally.  In that case not having left/right would be confusing for a 
sighted user.

>when navigating a tree i'd rather
>have only 2 responsive keys than 4...
Isn't tree behavior a separate issue?  In any event, I don't see how you 
can have less than 4 for trees.  When using up/down I wouldn't want nodes 
to open.  This would be very cumbersome for deep trees.  When using 
left/right I think users expect both open/close and traversal, i.e. using 
right on a closed node opens the node, right again moves to the first 
child.

Pete Brunet
                                                                          
IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666
Ionosphere: WS4G




"Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net> 
Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
08/24/2007 03:29 PM

To
Becky Gibson/Westford/IBM@Iris, wai-xtech@w3.org
cc

Subject
Re: argument for only ONE set of radio button navigation keys







becky wrote, quote:
I think you are suggesting that only one set of arrows be implemented - 
either up/down and left/right.
unquote

yes, that is precisely what i'm suggesting...

becky also wrote:
My feeling that supporting both was accommodating to all users.  I 
believe that a visual l person encountering a horizontal grouping 
would assume left and right key navigation and up and down key 
navigation for a vertical orientation.  By supporting both sets the 
person who can not perceive the orientation can use either set of 
keys. 
unquote

ah, but this is a problem that the XHTML2 working group has had
to address with what used to be called a "horizontal rule" -- 
for languages that are vertically aligned, horizontal rules don't
help much, and it is to keep authors from using kludges that the
redefined seperator (similar to the LS i proposed last year and 
also submitted to the HTML WG for consideration) alleviates...

up and down, left and right are all in the eye of the beholder,
and the orientation of characters in a written language -- that
is why, as a user, i would rather have ONE set of keys defined 
for radio button behavior -- regardless of visual orientation --
and one set of keys reserved for expansion and collapsing tree
views...  it's a question of seperating presentation from 
content, and reducing the burden on the user...  besides, those
with neuropathy and any other tactile disabilities (such as 
myself, he quickly added in an attempt at "full disclosure")
i would rather have a 4 key arrangement limited to 2, as i 
don't want to move selection just because i can't feel which
key is which, and if i make an error (using leftarrow instead
of up arrow, i don't want the widget making decisions for me 
which i never intended to communicate to it -- in radio button
grouping only 1 set of arrow keys should work -- the others 
should do nothing; likewise, when navigating a tree i'd rather
have only 2 responsive keys than 4...

i hope this addresses your question,
gregory
-------------------------------------------------------
BRAIN, n.  An apparatus with which we think we think.
              -- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
-------------------------------------------------------
Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
Oedipus' Online Complexes: http://my.opera.com/oedipus/
-------------------------------------------------------
Received on Friday, 24 August 2007 22:08:38 GMT

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