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Minutes: UAWG Oct 20, 2011

From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:40:53 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+=z1WkERiM6LCu3NS23f9zGUvYDQyxpEN4S1Nm+t4QRdZxPdA@mail.gmail.com>
To: WAI-ua <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
from http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
20 Oct 2011

See also: IRC log http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-irc
Attendees

Present
    Jim_Allan, kford, Jeanne, +1.617.435.aaaa, Jan, Greg_Lowney, KimP
Regrets
    MarkH, SimonH, KimP (attended 15 min)
Chair
    JimAllan, KellyFord
Scribe
    jallan

Contents

    Topics
        New comment
        propose agenda items for TPAC (what would you like to see)
        Jon Avila's comment - revisited
        Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/
        Guideline 2.7 - Configure and store preference settings.
        2.9 summary
    Summary of Action Items

Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to respond to comment, covered in 4.1.2, 4.1.6 in
general terms. forward Bolter comment. generally the comment is too
specific [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add "Users can configure and restore
accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility
settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple
sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults
(2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user
interface so the current user interface does not prevent access...
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add 2.8 from survey 6 October as is. [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add to intent of 4.1.6 This applies to both
user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to
recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to
indicate focus on custom controls)." [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to change 4.1.6a to be "the bounding dimensions
and coordinates of onscreen elements [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to fix 4.1.2 to add a carriage return under the
first example. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to update 2.9 with summary text above. (from
meeting of 20 October) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Date: 20 October 2011

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0010.html

me: waves back, 3 regrets so far

<jeanne> aaaa is really Kim

all: discussion of TPAC wednesday unconference

<scribe> scribe: jallan

js: reviewed Understanding Section for mobile access. Don't have any
specific examples, need to add some

<Jan> btw: Here is a report Jutta and I did in Canada
(http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/publications/reports/rp110327.htm)

the above is general review of mobile handset accessibility

scribe: doesn't address hearing, only talks to vision, dexterity, cognitive
... the above is a report to Canadian version of American FCC
... include future developments and best practices. In Canada the
telephone companies are on the hook, they need to push on the handset
manufacturers to make them accessible

We also had a short discussion on Kim's Navigation Marks proposed
SC--http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0017.html
New comment

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0018.html

Please insert an explicit requirement for user agents to convert
aria-activedescendant into MSAA for focus and location --- David
Bolter said it was covered in ARIA implementation Please insert an
explicit requirement for user agents to convert aria-activedescendant
into MSAA for focus and location

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0019.html

<jeanne> Greg: 4.1.6 covers this

<jeanne> ... but only in a general sense. We could tweak the intent
and add an example.

<jeanne> JA: In 4.1.1, 4.1.2 and 4.1.6 address supporting the
architecture, which means the name, role, state that Jonathan is
discussing.

<jeanne> GL: it doesn't NEED it, but we could add some things to
address it more directly. In 4.1.6, we could add a sentence to the
intent paragraph, "this applies to the user agent interfact and some
parts of the content

<Greg> For example, could add to the Intent paragraph of 4.1.6
Properties the sentence "This applies to both user agent user
interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to recognized aspects of
the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to indicate focus on
custom controls)."

<Greg> Because if at least one person read our document and didn't
think it was clear, there's no harm in making it a bit more explicit.

ja: seems to be explicitly covered by the intent in 4.1.2, could add
ARIA example.

<Greg> Or, could strip out the parenthetical examples and just make
those examples in the list of examples.

<kford> In the intent I am fine with this, just not in a SC.

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add to intent of 4.1.6 This applies to both
user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to
recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to
indicate focus on custom controls)." [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-623 - Add to intent of 4.1.6 This applies to
both user agent user interface (e.g. menus and dialog boxes) and to
recognized aspects of the user content (e.g. HTML script using ARIA to
indicate focus on custom controls)." [on Jeanne F Spellman - due
2011-10-27].

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to fix 4.1.2 to add a carriage return under
the first example. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-624 - Fix 4.1.2 to add a carriage return
under the first example. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].

<Greg> Seems odd that we don't have any examples involving CANVAS.

<scribe> ACTION: jallan to respond to comment, covered in 4.1.2, 4.1.6
in general terms. forward Bolter comment. generally the comment is too
specific [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-625 - Respond to comment, covered in 4.1.2,
4.1.6 in general terms. forward Bolter comment. generally the comment
is too specific [on Jim Allan - due 2011-10-27].

all: we are try to be technology agnostic.

kf: different groups are writing specific implementation guides for
givien technologies

<Greg> The SC should be technology agnostic, but examples should
generally be specific about users, technology, and/or UI.
propose agenda items for TPAC (what would you like to see)

asking for group input into f2f

gl: TPAC opportunity to interact with folks generally not on our
calls. should we branch out to other groups and see what they are
thinking
... do things what we can't do on a conference call. what do we need
to do with others.

jr: make better progress in person.

kf: hope to be done with the document when we leave.

gl: will we go through issues and action items.

kf: new content, anything that needs to be written.

js: if we have lots of observers, breaking into small groups may not
work. should have proposal for everything not yet written.

kf: if you want to watch the construction crew work...here we are

js: list of observers...some are signed up for every group.

jr: observers should not interfere with our group process

kf: we have to drive our own process and behaviors. we need closure.

chairs and jeanne will create/publish agenda next week

<scribe> new web-application - to say where you are in the hotel,
meeting rooms, etc. check in, out etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc7EHIc2TUE

above is google webinar about accessibility of DOCs

<jeanne> Google captures all the keystrokes so that the browser knows
nothing of what is going on, and nothing is reported to the A11y APIs

<jeanne> ... the screenreader is getting all information from
javascript. It tells the screenreader what it needs to say. It isn't
getting any information from the browser.

<jeanne> ... you have to listen to the webinar for the details.
Visually, it is drawn at the screen.

<jeanne> Jan: Javascript can't talk to the MSAA directly, so it has to
be commmunicating with the browser at some level.

<jeanne> Jim: It uses Chrome Vox

<kford> Google text-to-speech API.
http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2011/10/new-text-to-speech-api-for-chrome.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FDcni+(Google+Code+Blog)

<jeanne> Kelly: it uses a new text to speech API to generate the
speech for the app.

<jeanne> Jan: it is all divs and spans

<jeanne> Greg: what problems does it introduce? It prevents browser
plugins from adapting to the web app.

<jeanne> Jan: It prevents you from using the features of your AT. It
is passed to their built-in AT.

<jeanne> Kelly: there are instructions with different forums - like
there are setting in JAWS to change.

chrome with chromeVox becomes essentially a self-voiceing application.
no need for AT

<jeanne> ... they have to meet the letter of the law. It doesn't say
that you have to work with JAWS.

<jeanne> Jim: they were asked when they were meeting WCAG and 508,
Naomi Black said that they are listening to users, and will get around
to standards and guidelines later, now they were focusing on user
experience.
Jon Avila's comment - revisited

<Greg> In 4.1.6 bullet a, which says that user agent must expose "the
bounding dimensions and coordinates of rendered graphical objects",
maybe we should be more explicit either in the SC or in the Intent
paragraph or a Note that this means things that the user perceives or
that function as separate images or objects, even if at a technical
level they're implemented as a single image or object. For...

<Greg> ...example, if a single JPEG image is used for a toolbar, each
region of the image that the user can click on for different results
should be exposed as a separate object with its own bounding
rectangle.

<Greg> Which is pretty much what Jonathan was suggesting we be more
explicit about.

ja: this is much like an 'image map;

<Greg> I'm suggesting we add something to make this more explicit.

jan: coordinates are important when items (text or graphics) get focus

<Jan> onscreen objects?

need to changed 4.1.6 a - the bounding dimensions and coordinates of
rendered onscreen objects

<Greg> Jan is concerned that people will read "rendered graphical
objects" and interpret "graphical" as meaning images rather than text.
The actual intent of the bullet is for anything that has a screen
location and that a user would consider to be a separate region,
string, control, image, etc. either because it looks like or functions
like an independent or semi-independent object.

including text and graphics

<Greg> Also, maybe the SC should be changed from "rendered" graphical
objects to explicitly include both rendered content and user agent
user interface elements.

<Greg> If we say "of onscreen objects" (elements?) that would include
both rendered content and user agent user interface objects/elements.

<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to change 4.1.6a to be "the bounding
dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-626 - Change 4.1.6a to be "the bounding
dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements [on Jeanne F Spellman
- due 2011-10-27].

<Greg> UAAG20 is currently inconsistent on use of "element" vs.
"object", but element is the one broadly defined in the glossary.

zakim: agenda?
Review Survey for Oct 6 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/
Guideline 2.7 - Configure and store preference settings.

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/results#xq1

orig proposal

Users can configure, store and restore accessibility preference
settings (2.7.1, 2.7.2, 2.7.3) that persist between sessions. Users
can manage multiple sets of preference settings and restore groups of
settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5); and users can set preference
setting outside the user interface so the default user interface does
not prevent access (2.7.6). It's also recommended that...

scribe: groups of settings can be transported to compatible systems,
and a wizard is available to help users configure their preferences
(2.7.7, 2.7.8).

greg proposal

Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings
(2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions
(2.7.2). Users should be allowed to manage multiple sets of preference
settings and restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5),
and adjust preference setting outside the user interface so the
current user interface does not prevent access (2.7.6)....

scribe: It's also recommended that groups of settings can be
transported to compatible systems, and a wizard is available to help
users configure their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8).

<Greg> Per the discussion in email I'm fine with not using wording
differences to distinguish between Level A and Level AA.

Users can configure and restore accessibility preference settings
(2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility settings persist between sessions
(2.7.2). Users can manage multiple sets of preference settings and
restore groups of settings to defaults (2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust
preference setting outside the user interface so the current user
interface does not prevent access (2.7.6). It's also...

scribe: recommended that groups of settings can be transported to
compatible systems, and a wizard is available to help users configure
their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8).

<kford> no objections.

<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to add "Users can configure and restore
accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility
settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple
sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults
(2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user
interface so the current user interface does not prevent access...
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-627 - Add "Users can configure and restore
accessibility preference settings (2.7.1, 2.7.3), and accessibility
settings persist between sessions (2.7.2). Users can manage multiple
sets of preference settings and restore groups of settings to defaults
(2.7.4, 2.7.5), and adjust preference setting outside the user
interface so the current user interface does not prevent access... [on
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: (2.7.6). It's also...
... recommended that groups of settings can be transported to
compatible systems, and a wizard be available to help users configure
their preferences (2.7.7, 2.7.8)."

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add 2.8 from survey 6 October as is.
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-628 - Add 2.8 from survey 6 October as is.
[on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].
2.9 summary

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110929/results#xq3

<Greg> Discussion of Greg's proposal that 2.9.2 be changed from always
requiring progress indicators to only requiring them be on by default,
to make it 2.9.2 Retrieval Progress: By default, the user agent shows
the progress of content retrieval. (Level A)"

<jeanne> Resolution, 2.9.2 be changed from always requiring progress
indicators to only requiring them be on by default, to make it 2.9.2
Retrieval Progress: By default, the user agent shows the progress of
content retrieval. (Level A)"

proposed summary: Users can extend the time limit for user input when
such limits are controllable by the user agent (2.9.1); the user agent
shows the progress of content in the process of downloading (2.9.2).

<jeanne> Users can extend the time limit for user input when such
limits are controllable by the user agent (2.9.1); by default, the
user agent shows the progress of content in the process of downloading
(2.9.2).

<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to update 2.9 with summary text above. (from
meeting of 20 October) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/20-ua-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-629 - Update 2.9 with summary text above.
(from meeting of 20 October) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-10-27].


[End of minutes]

-- 
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
Received on Thursday, 20 October 2011 18:41:18 GMT

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