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Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:07:05 -0400
Message-ID: <010e01c89a42$9d565920$0901a8c0@HANDS>
To: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "'Sean Hayes'" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, "'Jan Richards'" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
Cc: "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>

I just came across this and thought it right for our discussion:
<<<begin inserted message>
Hi.
just went to the burkeley university site, and a guy is developing an
accessible drawing package called Inter Communication Draw 2, where
you use a palate , draw from one end point to the other end  point,
and then able to label the graphics, and he is using java.
and he is doing this for his phd, has any one heard how this project
is going,and when it will be possibly commercialised?
would also like to be a beta tester for this project.
Professor James Landy of the Electrical Engineering and Communications
Technology Faculty was helping him out, and he started off this
project, as was frustrated, with not able to show illustrations on a
thesis he was doing, and the sighted transcriber, did not know what
they were doing as well.
so , out of frustration, he developed this project with a team of
fellow students.
did try e-mailling him about five years ago, but only got one
response, and that was in 2002, and his name is Hasheme Camille.
do you know of hims, and if so, how can i contact him or Professor
James landy about this project?
cheers marvin.

-- 
Check out my home page at http://startrekcafe.stevesdomain.net/
Check out my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/


-- 
Check out my home page at http://startrekcafe.stevesdomain.net/
Check out my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
To: "'Sean Hayes'" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'David Poehlman'" 
<poehlman1@comcast.net>; "'Jan Richards'" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
Cc: "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 1:25 AM
Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)



I concur. (with Sean's comment and Jan's proposal)

Gregg
 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Hayes [mailto:Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:47 PM
> To: David Poehlman; Jan Richards; Gregg Vanderheiden
> Cc: 'WAI-UA list'
> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008 Call)
>
> Almost certainly, but how long do you want to wait? A
> standard needs to find a balance somewhere between the way
> things are done now, and the possibility of direct neural
> control of strong AI machines 30 years from now.
>
> I think Jan's proposal is pretty good and in line with other
> contemporary standards.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Media Acessibility Strategist
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@comcast.net]
> Sent: 08 April 2008 22:42
> To: Jan Richards; Gregg Vanderheiden
> Cc: Sean Hayes; 'WAI-UA list'
> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008 Call)
>
> Is there a possibility that the complexity may be reduced by
> future technical advance?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
> To: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
> Cc: "'David Poehlman'" <poehlman1@comcast.net>; "'Sean Hayes'"
> <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:51 PM
> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008 Call)
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> So how about:
>
> 4.1.1 Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be *operated via the
> keyboard* using *sequential* and/or *direct* keyboard
> commands that do not require specific timings for individual
> keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires
> input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not
> just the endpoints (e.g., *free hand drawing*).
>
>
> Notes for proposal:
>
> 1. Might be more clear if we could define "free hand drawing"
> with some of the ideas in the current discussion would help
> make clear why an exception is needed.
>
> 2. The bit about *sequential* and *direct* is needed in UAAG
> but not WCAG 2.0 because the two guidelines handle keyboard
> control of the mouse differently (i.e. WCAG conformance does
> not cover AT's, but UAAG conformance can). My proposal for
> redefining the terms is at:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html
>
>
> Cheers,
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> ,
> Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> > This is a good description of what and why it is an exception.
> >
> > Any drawing that can be done with a ruler etc would NOT be
> an exception.
> > But truly freehand can't be done by parameter except with an
> > excruciatingly large number of data points.  If a product wanted to
> > try to make this available from the keyboard there is no
> bar.  But it
> > would not be required because, in general, it would not be
> reasonable
> > for anyone to be productive (even for personal use) doing input of
> > that type.
> >
> > For those what would like to try this, there are drawing programs
> > designed to provide artistic output from minimal input.
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> >  -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jan Richards [mailto:jan.richards@utoronto.ca]
> >> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:40 PM
> >> To: David Poehlman
> >> Cc: Gregg Vanderheiden; 'Sean Hayes'; 'WAI-UA list'
> >> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008
> >> Call)
> >>
> >> Hi Dave,
> >>
> >> You're right in theory, but it's a question of complexity
> (and thus
> >> practicality). When a drawing pad is used to "paint" a
> "brush stroke"
> >> on an electronic "canvas" the result is "just" a static
> bitmap...but
> >> it is an extremely complex one that took as input the
> stylus's speed,
> >> pressure and movement in 2-D space over hundreds of time points as
> >> inputs.
> >> While these could be specified by a large number of numeric
> >> parameters, there is a practical limit.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Jan
> >>
> >> David Poehlman wrote:
> >>> so you are saying free hand drawing cannot be done via the
> >> keyboard?
> >>> I agree flying a vehicle or even driving one might be collosally
> >>> difficult if possible, but Unless I'm missing something,
> >> anything that
> >>> is stationary can be done with a keyboard.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
> >>> To: "'Sean Hayes'" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'Jan Richards'"
> >>> <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>; "'David Poehlman'"
> >> <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> >>> Cc: "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:00 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> >> April 2008
> >>> Call)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The exception (which is in TEITAC and WCAG) is
> >>>
> >>> [Except where]  the underlying function requires input that
> >> depends on
> >>> the [full] path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So the exception isn't about drawing that can be done with
> >> rubber band
> >>> lines or anything that can be (easily) specified without a
> >> near infinite number of
> >>> data points  -   but rather to things like freehand drawing.
> >>>
> >>> This provision interacts with the timing provision to also
> >> not require
> >>> keyboard access to things like flying a helicopter in real-time.
> >>>
> >>> We are doing some work to look at the limits of different
> types of
> >>> input devices for different tasks.  It is interesting and
> >> challenging
> >>> when you get down to the details.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gregg
> >>>  -- ------------------------------
> >>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>> If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org
> >>>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:15 AM
> >>>> To: Jan Richards; David Poehlman
> >>>> Cc: WAI-UA list
> >>>> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> >> April 2008
> >>>> Call)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The TEITAC exception does not cover all drawing, only that which
> >>>> really requires real time capture (such handwriting
> >> analysis, or as
> >>>> exhibited by some paint type applications where pressure
> >> and velocity
> >>>> affect the final stroke). Basic line drawing, shapes and
> >> stuff like
> >>>> that could be done via the keyboard.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean Hayes
> >>>> Media Acessibility Strategist
> >>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> >>>> Microsoft
> >>>>
> >>>> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
> >>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org
> >>>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jan Richards
> >>>> Sent: 04 April 2008 21:40
> >>>> To: David Poehlman
> >>>> Cc: WAI-UA list
> >>>> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> >> April 2008
> >>>> Call)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Dave,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not very comfortable with exceptions either...and
> >> didn't take it
> >>>> lightly writing it...
> >>>>
> >>>> How would you want to handle drawing, etc.? Driving the
> mouse with
> >>>> keys or do you have something else in mind?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Jan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> David Poehlman wrote:
> >>>>> We had a big discussion about this in the ITTac.
> >>>>> "available. The only exception is for underlying functions
> >>>> that depend
> >>>>> on the path of the user's movement and not just the
> >>>> endpoints (e.g., drawing)."
> >>>>> Suffice it to say that I take exception with the exception.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
> >>>>> To: "WAI-UA list" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:08 PM
> >>>>> Subject: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008
> >>>>> Call)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The other thing we were doing on the 3 April 2008 UAWG call was
> >>>>> looking at the Level A requirements of 4.1. I made some
> >>>> notes from the
> >>>>> discussion and have tried to turn them into a proposal
> that also
> >>>>> attempts to bring in the requirements for "visual indicators":
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ORIGINAL Wording:
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable
> >>>>>
> >>>>> NEW Wording Ideas:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Level A Success Criteria for Guideline 4.1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.1 Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be
> >>>> *operated via the
> >>>>> keyboard*, even if pointing device-only modes of
> >> operation are also
> >>>>> available. The only exception is for underlying functions
> >>>> that depend
> >>>>> on the path of the user's movement and not just the
> >>>> endpoints (e.g., drawing).
> >>>>> 4.1.2 Keystroke Precedence: The precedence of keystroke
> >>>> processing is
> >>>>> documented (e.g., user agent interface, then user agent
> >> extensions,
> >>>>> then content features administered by the user agent such as
> >>>>> accesskey, and then executable content).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.3 No Keyboard Trap: When the content display has focus,
> >>>> a standard
> >>>>> keyboard command is always available that can "back out"
> >>>> the focus by
> >>>>> one level in the content hierarchy. From the top level of the
> >>>>> hierarchy, this command moves focus to the user agent's
> >>>> chrome (e.g.,
> >>>>> the address bar).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.4 Caret Text Navigation: Views that render text also
> >>>> support the
> >>>>> standard text area conventions for the platform (e.g.,
> >> "arrow" key
> >>>>> navigation, shift-to-select mechanism).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.5 Indicating Direct Keyboard Command (Chrome): A mode
> >>>> is provided
> >>>>> in which any *direct keyboard commands* associated with the
> >>>> currently
> >>>>> displayed controls in the user agent chrome are indicated:
> >>>>> (a) visually at the location of the control (e.g. with an
> >> accesskey
> >>>>> underlined, with an overlay), and
> >>>>> (b) centrally in a programmatically available fashion
> >>>> (e.g., the menu
> >>>>> system).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.6 Indicating Direct Keyboard Command (Content Display):
> >>>> A mode is
> >>>>> provided in which any *direct keyboard commands* associated
> >>>> with the
> >>>>> currently displayed controls in the content display are
> indicated:
> >>>>> (a) visually at the location of the control (e.g. with an
> >> overlay),
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> (b) centrally in a programmatically available fashion
> >>>> (e.g., a list of
> >>>>> accesskeys).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> NOTES:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.4 Separate Activation: REMOVED -DUPLICATES 3.12.11
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.7 "Chrome" Navigation: REMOVED - IMPLICIT IN 4.1.1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Jan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
> >>>> User Interface Design Specialist
> >>>> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of
> Information
> >>>> Studies University of Toronto
> >>>>
> >>>>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
> >>>>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
> >>>>    Phone: 416-946-7060
> >>>>    Fax:   416-971-2896
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
> >> User Interface Design Specialist
> >> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of Information
> >> Studies University of Toronto
> >>
> >>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
> >>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
> >>    Phone: 416-946-7060
> >>    Fax:   416-971-2896
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
> User Interface Design Specialist
> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of
> Information Studies University of Toronto
>
>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
>    Phone: 416-946-7060
>    Fax:   416-971-2896
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 9 April 2008 13:08:32 GMT

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