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RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3 April 2008 Call)

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:25:39 -0500
To: 'Sean Hayes' <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, 'David Poehlman' <poehlman1@comcast.net>, 'Jan Richards' <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
Cc: 'WAI-UA list' <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
Message-id: <005501c89a02$268435f0$186fa8c0@NC84301>

I concur. (with Sean's comment and Jan's proposal)

Gregg
 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Hayes [mailto:Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:47 PM
> To: David Poehlman; Jan Richards; Gregg Vanderheiden
> Cc: 'WAI-UA list'
> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008 Call)
>
> Almost certainly, but how long do you want to wait? A
> standard needs to find a balance somewhere between the way
> things are done now, and the possibility of direct neural
> control of strong AI machines 30 years from now.
>
> I think Jan's proposal is pretty good and in line with other
> contemporary standards.
>
> Sean Hayes
> Media Acessibility Strategist
> Accessibility Business Unit
> Microsoft
>
> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@comcast.net]
> Sent: 08 April 2008 22:42
> To: Jan Richards; Gregg Vanderheiden
> Cc: Sean Hayes; 'WAI-UA list'
> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008 Call)
>
> Is there a possibility that the complexity may be reduced by
> future technical advance?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
> To: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
> Cc: "'David Poehlman'" <poehlman1@comcast.net>; "'Sean Hayes'"
> <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:51 PM
> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008 Call)
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> So how about:
>
> 4.1.1 Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be *operated via the
> keyboard* using *sequential* and/or *direct* keyboard
> commands that do not require specific timings for individual
> keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires
> input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not
> just the endpoints (e.g., *free hand drawing*).
>
>
> Notes for proposal:
>
> 1. Might be more clear if we could define "free hand drawing"
> with some of the ideas in the current discussion would help
> make clear why an exception is needed.
>
> 2. The bit about *sequential* and *direct* is needed in UAAG
> but not WCAG 2.0 because the two guidelines handle keyboard
> control of the mouse differently (i.e. WCAG conformance does
> not cover AT's, but UAAG conformance can). My proposal for
> redefining the terms is at:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0004.html
>
>
> Cheers,
> Jan
>
>
>
>
>
> ,
> Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> > This is a good description of what and why it is an exception.
> >
> > Any drawing that can be done with a ruler etc would NOT be
> an exception.
> > But truly freehand can't be done by parameter except with an
> > excruciatingly large number of data points.  If a product wanted to
> > try to make this available from the keyboard there is no
> bar.  But it
> > would not be required because, in general, it would not be
> reasonable
> > for anyone to be productive (even for personal use) doing input of
> > that type.
> >
> > For those what would like to try this, there are drawing programs
> > designed to provide artistic output from minimal input.
> >
> >
> > Gregg
> >  -- ------------------------------
> > Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> > If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jan Richards [mailto:jan.richards@utoronto.ca]
> >> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:40 PM
> >> To: David Poehlman
> >> Cc: Gregg Vanderheiden; 'Sean Hayes'; 'WAI-UA list'
> >> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008
> >> Call)
> >>
> >> Hi Dave,
> >>
> >> You're right in theory, but it's a question of complexity
> (and thus
> >> practicality). When a drawing pad is used to "paint" a
> "brush stroke"
> >> on an electronic "canvas" the result is "just" a static
> bitmap...but
> >> it is an extremely complex one that took as input the
> stylus's speed,
> >> pressure and movement in 2-D space over hundreds of time points as
> >> inputs.
> >> While these could be specified by a large number of numeric
> >> parameters, there is a practical limit.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Jan
> >>
> >> David Poehlman wrote:
> >>> so you are saying free hand drawing cannot be done via the
> >> keyboard?
> >>> I agree flying a vehicle or even driving one might be collosally
> >>> difficult if possible, but Unless I'm missing something,
> >> anything that
> >>> is stationary can be done with a keyboard.
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
> >>> To: "'Sean Hayes'" <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>; "'Jan Richards'"
> >>> <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>; "'David Poehlman'"
> >> <poehlman1@comcast.net>
> >>> Cc: "'WAI-UA list'" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:00 PM
> >>> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> >> April 2008
> >>> Call)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The exception (which is in TEITAC and WCAG) is
> >>>
> >>> [Except where]  the underlying function requires input that
> >> depends on
> >>> the [full] path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So the exception isn't about drawing that can be done with
> >> rubber band
> >>> lines or anything that can be (easily) specified without a
> >> near infinite number of
> >>> data points  -   but rather to things like freehand drawing.
> >>>
> >>> This provision interacts with the timing provision to also
> >> not require
> >>> keyboard access to things like flying a helicopter in real-time.
> >>>
> >>> We are doing some work to look at the limits of different
> types of
> >>> input devices for different tasks.  It is interesting and
> >> challenging
> >>> when you get down to the details.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gregg
> >>>  -- ------------------------------
> >>> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> >>> If Attachment is a mail.dat try http://www.kopf.com.br/winmail/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org
> >>>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sean Hayes
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:15 AM
> >>>> To: Jan Richards; David Poehlman
> >>>> Cc: WAI-UA list
> >>>> Subject: RE: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> >> April 2008
> >>>> Call)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The TEITAC exception does not cover all drawing, only that which
> >>>> really requires real time capture (such handwriting
> >> analysis, or as
> >>>> exhibited by some paint type applications where pressure
> >> and velocity
> >>>> affect the final stroke). Basic line drawing, shapes and
> >> stuff like
> >>>> that could be done via the keyboard.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sean Hayes
> >>>> Media Acessibility Strategist
> >>>> Accessibility Business Unit
> >>>> Microsoft
> >>>>
> >>>> Office:  +44 118 909 5867,
> >>>> Mobile: +44 7875 091385
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org
> >>>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Jan Richards
> >>>> Sent: 04 April 2008 21:40
> >>>> To: David Poehlman
> >>>> Cc: WAI-UA list
> >>>> Subject: Re: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> >> April 2008
> >>>> Call)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Dave,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not very comfortable with exceptions either...and
> >> didn't take it
> >>>> lightly writing it...
> >>>>
> >>>> How would you want to handle drawing, etc.? Driving the
> mouse with
> >>>> keys or do you have something else in mind?
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Jan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> David Poehlman wrote:
> >>>>> We had a big discussion about this in the ITTac.
> >>>>> "available. The only exception is for underlying functions
> >>>> that depend
> >>>>> on the path of the user's movement and not just the
> >>>> endpoints (e.g., drawing)."
> >>>>> Suffice it to say that I take exception with the exception.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Jan Richards" <jan.richards@utoronto.ca>
> >>>>> To: "WAI-UA list" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:08 PM
> >>>>> Subject: UAAG2 Guideline 4.1 Level A Only (following 3
> April 2008
> >>>>> Call)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The other thing we were doing on the 3 April 2008 UAWG call was
> >>>>> looking at the Level A requirements of 4.1. I made some
> >>>> notes from the
> >>>>> discussion and have tried to turn them into a proposal
> that also
> >>>>> attempts to bring in the requirements for "visual indicators":
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ORIGINAL Wording:
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable
> >>>>>
> >>>>> NEW Wording Ideas:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Level A Success Criteria for Guideline 4.1
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.1 Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be
> >>>> *operated via the
> >>>>> keyboard*, even if pointing device-only modes of
> >> operation are also
> >>>>> available. The only exception is for underlying functions
> >>>> that depend
> >>>>> on the path of the user's movement and not just the
> >>>> endpoints (e.g., drawing).
> >>>>> 4.1.2 Keystroke Precedence: The precedence of keystroke
> >>>> processing is
> >>>>> documented (e.g., user agent interface, then user agent
> >> extensions,
> >>>>> then content features administered by the user agent such as
> >>>>> accesskey, and then executable content).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.3 No Keyboard Trap: When the content display has focus,
> >>>> a standard
> >>>>> keyboard command is always available that can "back out"
> >>>> the focus by
> >>>>> one level in the content hierarchy. From the top level of the
> >>>>> hierarchy, this command moves focus to the user agent's
> >>>> chrome (e.g.,
> >>>>> the address bar).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.4 Caret Text Navigation: Views that render text also
> >>>> support the
> >>>>> standard text area conventions for the platform (e.g.,
> >> "arrow" key
> >>>>> navigation, shift-to-select mechanism).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.5 Indicating Direct Keyboard Command (Chrome): A mode
> >>>> is provided
> >>>>> in which any *direct keyboard commands* associated with the
> >>>> currently
> >>>>> displayed controls in the user agent chrome are indicated:
> >>>>> (a) visually at the location of the control (e.g. with an
> >> accesskey
> >>>>> underlined, with an overlay), and
> >>>>> (b) centrally in a programmatically available fashion
> >>>> (e.g., the menu
> >>>>> system).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.6 Indicating Direct Keyboard Command (Content Display):
> >>>> A mode is
> >>>>> provided in which any *direct keyboard commands* associated
> >>>> with the
> >>>>> currently displayed controls in the content display are
> indicated:
> >>>>> (a) visually at the location of the control (e.g. with an
> >> overlay),
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> (b) centrally in a programmatically available fashion
> >>>> (e.g., a list of
> >>>>> accesskeys).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> NOTES:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.4 Separate Activation: REMOVED -DUPLICATES 3.12.11
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4.1.7 "Chrome" Navigation: REMOVED - IMPLICIT IN 4.1.1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Jan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
> >>>> User Interface Design Specialist
> >>>> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of
> Information
> >>>> Studies University of Toronto
> >>>>
> >>>>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
> >>>>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
> >>>>    Phone: 416-946-7060
> >>>>    Fax:   416-971-2896
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
> >> User Interface Design Specialist
> >> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of Information
> >> Studies University of Toronto
> >>
> >>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
> >>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
> >>    Phone: 416-946-7060
> >>    Fax:   416-971-2896
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Jan Richards, M.Sc.
> User Interface Design Specialist
> Adaptive Technology Resource Centre (ATRC) Faculty of
> Information Studies University of Toronto
>
>    Email: jan.richards@utoronto.ca
>    Web:   http://jan.atrc.utoronto.ca
>    Phone: 416-946-7060
>    Fax:   416-971-2896
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 9 April 2008 05:26:24 GMT

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