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RE: Accessible content management system

From: Jim Tobias <tobias@inclusive.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 07:26:16 -0400
To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <017b01cc5299$53d42df0$fb7c89d0$@inclusive.com>
Jorge makes an excellent point regarding text editors. Third-party editors
are not always access-friendly. This is another part of the ecosystem --
media players, widgets, themes, etc. --  a lot of the web is now outside the
grasp of the major platform entities, and those folks need to be approached
about accessibility directly and as an industry segment.

***
Jim Tobias
Inclusive Technologies
+1.908.907.2387 v/sms
skype jimtobias

> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Jorge Fernandes
> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:02 AM
> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Accessible content management system
> 
> In my experience with CMS, open source like Plone and Joomla (until
> 1.5) and proprietary like Sharepoint I was confronted all the time
> with two problems:
> 
> 1)
> Mix of metadata and HTML elements in back end source fields. For
> example the title of page use the same source field to produce for
> example:
> <title>Manual de instruções das WCAG</title> and
> <h1>Manual de instruções das <acronym title="Web Content Accessibility
> Guideline" lang="en">WCAG</acronym></h1>
> 
> For example in Contao, I only see the title field and it is used to
> produce <title> and others HTML elements. We only get:
> 
> <title>Manual de instruções das WCAG</title>
> <h1>Manual de instruções das WCAG</h1> /* not conform to WCAG 1.0 -
> priority 1 */
> <ul>
> <li>Manual de instruções das WCAG</li> /* not conform to WCAG 1.0 -
> priority 1 */
> ...
> </ul>
> 
> 2)
> The HTML editor is my main problem. I can't find a flexible editor
> that permit:
> - an output conform with HTML standards;
> - that use external CSS and do not use deprecated HTML attributes and/
> or elements;
> - that don't add (in a tentative to correct the code) things like
> <img ... border="0">
> - that permit to mark the language changes throught the documents (we
> use it a lot in portuguese writing). Things like:
> <span lang="en" xml:lang="en">just in time</span>
> - almost all the HTML editors I know, when we introduce directly HTML
> then try to correct it and do bad things to our code. Almost in all my
> projects in Plone, Joomla, Sharepoint, Oracle, I don't use HTML
> editors. I use Dreamweaver and then copy/paste the info to the CMS.
> Shame of me! :-)
> - etc.
> 
> I saw that Contao have techniques to make automatically things like
> "Good" by <span lang="en">Good</span>. This seems to me a weak
> solution. I need something more robust. In contao HTML editor I tried
> this:
> 
> <p>Este é um texto em <em lang="en"
> xml:lang="en">portuguese</em></p>
> 
> With Contao I write the paragraph; then select "portuguese" and press
> the button to <em>. So far, so good. Then, with the "portuguese" word
> selected, I press the button to introduce atributes in <em> element.
> The result was:
> 
> <p lang="en" xml:lang="en">Este é um texto em
> <em>portuguese</em></p>
> That is not what we want!
> 
> My dream is have the dreamweaver working directly to edit HTML in the
> fields of the CMS (I do it with copy/paste) and a power solution to do
> find/replaces directly in the DataBase (I do it with phpmyadmin when
> use MySQL).
> 
> Cheers, Jorge Fernandes
> 
> 
> On 4 Aug 2011, at 10:37, Ian Sharpe wrote:
> 
> > Hi Phil
> >
> > Totally agree and would also re-emphasise the point that jim made in
> > relation to this point as well as module or extension development.
> > No matter
> > how well designed and conformant a CMS might be, it is always going
> > to be
> > the case that the author of any given site must also consider the
> > theme  and
> > any modules or extensions it uses in order to ensure a site is
> > accessible.
> >
> > The point I was making with regard to Plone, (and Drupal), is more
> > that both
> > of these communities has expressed a strong desire or even
> > commitment to
> > improve the accessiblity of their platforms which is encouraging. As
> > it is
> > also encouraging to hear that blind people are successfully
> > administrating
> > sites using Drupal or Contao for example.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Ian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]
> > On Behalf
> > Of Phil Evans
> > Sent: 04 August 2011 07:52
> > To: flybynight
> > Cc: 'Terry Dean'; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: Accessible content management system
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just a very small contribution, as I don't use CMS at all:
> >
> >> As does Plone which also looks very good.
> >
> > Is this true? I have not used Plone from the developer point of
> > view, but a
> > website which I visit regularly uses Plone. If I feed pages frmo that
> > website to the W3C HTML validator they fail -- only a couple of
> > relatively
> > minor errors, but nonetheless I (naively?) would hope that a CMS which
> > aspires to serve accessible content will at least provide valid
> > content.
> >
> > As a side issue, which you're probably all aware of, no CMS could ever
> > guarantee accessibilty on its own. For example, a (plone-based) site
> > I have
> > used chose red on green as its colour scheme; ignoring that fact that
> > red/green colour-blindness (very common) would render the page
> > unusable!
> >
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Typo3 would seem to be quite usable apparently although I haven't
> >> spent any time looking into this at this stage.
> >>
> >> However, you may well want to take a look at contao:
> >> http://www.contao.org
> >>
> >> Which looks very good from my initial view.
> >>
> >> I haven't validated it yet but it seemed very usable with only the
> >> keyboard and has a nice clean and simple interface, while still
> >> having
> >> all the features you'd expect to see in a leading CMS. It even has a
> >> load of shortcut keys that are described in the main admin screen.
> >> You
> >> can try the online demo from their home page.
> >>
> >> I'd be interested to hear what you and others think?
> >>
> >> Incidentally, have you looked at DNN recently? I'm guessing it hasn't
> >> got any better but I do know they were keen on conformance with W3C
> >> guidelines, although which ones I'm not exactly sure.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Ian
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]
> On
> >> Behalf Of Terry Dean
> >> Sent: 03 August 2011 21:14
> >> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> Subject: Re: Accessible content management system
> >>
> >> Hi Ian,
> >>
> >> If you do find one that conforms to the W3C Web Accessibility
> >> guidelines please let me know. Its one thing to claim that a CMS is
> >> compliant and another to actually be accessible.
> >>
> >> You only need to run a few accessibility tools over these CMSs to
> >> find
> >> that they are generally full of problems.
> >>
> >> I dont claim to have the answers and I do not build these systems but
> >> I can understand how difficult they must be to make compliant. I
> >> remember trying to modify DotNetNuke in 2000 in order to validate it
> >> to XHTML Strict 1.0 and gave up in the end.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >>
> >> Terry
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ian Sharpe"<isforums@manx.net>
> >> To: "'Terry Dean'"<Terry.Dean@chariot.net.au>;<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 6:32 PM
> >> Subject: RE: Accessible content management system
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Terry
> >>>
> >>> While I understand where you're coming from and based on the
> >>> feedback
> >>> I've received so far, would accept your belief that at this time,
> >>> such a solution does not exist, I would challenge your statement
> >>> that
> >>> this is not a serious question.
> >>>
> >>> Much of the web these days is generated through CMSs and this is
> >>> only
> >>> going to increase over time. One of the founding principals of the
> >>> web for me at least is giving everyone the opportunity to have their
> >>> say and hear what everyone else is saying. It follows that if
> >>> members
> >>> of the disabled or less technically competant communities are unable
> >>> to voice their opinions and thoughts as easily as those without any
> >>> barriers to access and author content (particularly when it's in
> >>> relation to accessing and authoring content), this voice will become
> >>> quieter when it should be getting louder.
> >>>
> >>> Ensuring that there is at least one accessible and feature rich CMS
> >>> would therefore seem vital in terms of the web's accessibility to
> >>> me.
> >>>
> >>> It is therefore a very serious question and while there doesn't
> >>> appear to currently be a single solution, I hope that you are at
> >>> least encouraged, even if only a little, by the comments others have
> > made.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> ian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > -------------------------
> >
> > Phil Evans,
> > Swift Development Scientist
> > X-ray and Observational Astronomy Group, University of Leicester
> >
> > Tel: +44 (0)116 252 5059
> > Mobile: +44 (0)7780 980240
> > pae9@star.le.ac.uk
> > http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~pae9
> > http://www.swift.ac.uk
> >
> > Follow me as a Swift scientist on Twitter: @swift_phil
> > http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~pae9/twitter
> >
> >
Received on Thursday, 4 August 2011 11:26:44 GMT

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