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Re: Accessible content management system

From: Jorge Fernandes <jorge.f@netcabo.pt>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:49:42 +0100
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-Id: <206F08EA-D072-4BA3-B625-CB2F4A22F9D9@netcabo.pt>
To: Jorge Fernandes <jorge.f@netcabo.pt>

On 4 Aug 2011, at 12:01, Jorge Fernandes wrote:

In my experience with CMS, open source like Plone and Joomla (until  
1.5) and proprietary like Sharepoint I was confronted all the time  
with two problems:

1)
Mix of metadata and HTML elements in back end source fields. For  
example the title of page use the same source field to produce for  
example:
<title>Manual de instruções das WCAG</title> and
<h1>Manual de instruções das <acronym title="Web Content Accessibility  
Guideline" lang="en">WCAG</acronym></h1>

For example in Contao, I only see the title field and it is used to  
produce <title> and others HTML elements. We only get:

<title>Manual de instruções das WCAG</title>
<h1>Manual de instruções das WCAG</h1> /* not conform to WCAG 1.0 -  
priority 1 */
<ul>
<li>Manual de instruções das WCAG</li> /* not conform to WCAG 1.0 -  
priority 1 */
...
</ul>

2)
The HTML editor is my main problem. I can't find a flexible editor  
that permit:
- an output conform with HTML standards;
- that use external CSS and do not use deprecated HTML attributes and/ 
or elements;
- that don't add (in a tentative to correct the code) things like  
<img ... border="0">
- that permit to mark the language changes throught the documents (we  
use it a lot in portuguese writing). Things like:
<span lang="en" xml:lang="en">just in time</span>
- almost all the HTML editors I know, when we introduce directly HTML  
then try to correct it and do bad things to our code. Almost in all my  
projects in Plone, Joomla, Sharepoint, Oracle, I don't use HTML  
editors. I use Dreamweaver and then copy/paste the info to the CMS.  
Shame of me! :-)
- etc.

I saw that Contao have techniques to make automatically things like  
"Good" by <span lang="en">Good</span>. This seems to me a weak  
solution. I need something more robust. In contao HTML editor I tried  
this:

<p>Este é um texto em <em lang="en" xml:lang="en">portuguese</em></p>

With Contao I write the paragraph; then select "portuguese" and press  
the button to <em>. So far, so good. Then, with the "portuguese" word  
selected, I press the button to introduce atributes in <em> element.  
The result was:

<p lang="en" xml:lang="en">Este é um texto em <em>portuguese</em></p>  
That is not what we want!

My dream is have the dreamweaver working directly to edit HTML in the  
fields of the CMS (I do it with copy/paste) and a power solution to do  
find/replaces directly in the DataBase (I do it with phpmyadmin when  
use MySQL).

Cheers, Jorge Fernandes
>
>
> On 4 Aug 2011, at 10:37, Ian Sharpe wrote:
>
>> Hi Phil
>>
>> Totally agree and would also re-emphasise the point that jim made in
>> relation to this point as well as module or extension development.  
>> No matter
>> how well designed and conformant a CMS might be, it is always going  
>> to be
>> the case that the author of any given site must also consider the  
>> theme  and
>> any modules or extensions it uses in order to ensure a site is  
>> accessible.
>>
>> The point I was making with regard to Plone, (and Drupal), is more  
>> that both
>> of these communities has expressed a strong desire or even  
>> commitment to
>> improve the accessiblity of their platforms which is encouraging.  
>> As it is
>> also encouraging to hear that blind people are successfully  
>> administrating
>> sites using Drupal or Contao for example.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Ian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]  
>> On Behalf
>> Of Phil Evans
>> Sent: 04 August 2011 07:52
>> To: flybynight
>> Cc: 'Terry Dean'; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: Accessible content management system
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just a very small contribution, as I don't use CMS at all:
>>
>>> As does Plone which also looks very good.
>>
>> Is this true? I have not used Plone from the developer point of  
>> view, but a
>> website which I visit regularly uses Plone. If I feed pages frmo that
>> website to the W3C HTML validator they fail -- only a couple of  
>> relatively
>> minor errors, but nonetheless I (naively?) would hope that a CMS  
>> which
>> aspires to serve accessible content will at least provide valid  
>> content.
>>
>> As a side issue, which you're probably all aware of, no CMS could  
>> ever
>> guarantee accessibilty on its own. For example, a (plone-based)  
>> site I have
>> used chose red on green as its colour scheme; ignoring that fact that
>> red/green colour-blindness (very common) would render the page  
>> unusable!
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Typo3 would seem to be quite usable apparently although I haven't
>>> spent any time looking into this at this stage.
>>>
>>> However, you may well want to take a look at contao:
>>> http://www.contao.org
>>>
>>> Which looks very good from my initial view.
>>>
>>> I haven't validated it yet but it seemed very usable with only the
>>> keyboard and has a nice clean and simple interface, while still  
>>> having
>>> all the features you'd expect to see in a leading CMS. It even has a
>>> load of shortcut keys that are described in the main admin screen.  
>>> You
>>> can try the online demo from their home page.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear what you and others think?
>>>
>>> Incidentally, have you looked at DNN recently? I'm guessing it  
>>> hasn't
>>> got any better but I do know they were keen on conformance with W3C
>>> guidelines, although which ones I'm not exactly sure.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]  
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Terry Dean
>>> Sent: 03 August 2011 21:14
>>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: Accessible content management system
>>>
>>> Hi Ian,
>>>
>>> If you do find one that conforms to the W3C Web Accessibility
>>> guidelines please let me know. Its one thing to claim that a CMS is
>>> compliant and another to actually be accessible.
>>>
>>> You only need to run a few accessibility tools over these CMSs to  
>>> find
>>> that they are generally full of problems.
>>>
>>> I dont claim to have the answers and I do not build these systems  
>>> but
>>> I can understand how difficult they must be to make compliant. I
>>> remember trying to modify DotNetNuke in 2000 in order to validate it
>>> to XHTML Strict 1.0 and gave up in the end.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> Terry
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ian Sharpe"<isforums@manx.net>
>>> To: "'Terry Dean'"<Terry.Dean@chariot.net.au>;<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 6:32 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Accessible content management system
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Terry
>>>>
>>>> While I understand where you're coming from and based on the  
>>>> feedback
>>>> I've received so far, would accept your belief that at this time,
>>>> such a solution does not exist, I would challenge your statement  
>>>> that
>>>> this is not a serious question.
>>>>
>>>> Much of the web these days is generated through CMSs and this is  
>>>> only
>>>> going to increase over time. One of the founding principals of the
>>>> web for me at least is giving everyone the opportunity to have  
>>>> their
>>>> say and hear what everyone else is saying. It follows that if  
>>>> members
>>>> of the disabled or less technically competant communities are  
>>>> unable
>>>> to voice their opinions and thoughts as easily as those without any
>>>> barriers to access and author content (particularly when it's in
>>>> relation to accessing and authoring content), this voice will  
>>>> become
>>>> quieter when it should be getting louder.
>>>>
>>>> Ensuring that there is at least one accessible and feature rich CMS
>>>> would therefore seem vital in terms of the web's accessibility to  
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> It is therefore a very serious question and while there doesn't
>>>> appear to currently be a single solution, I hope that you are at
>>>> least encouraged, even if only a little, by the comments others  
>>>> have
>> made.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> ian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Phil Evans,
>> Swift Development Scientist
>> X-ray and Observational Astronomy Group, University of Leicester
>>
>> Tel: +44 (0)116 252 5059
>> Mobile: +44 (0)7780 980240
>> pae9@star.le.ac.uk
>> http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~pae9
>> http://www.swift.ac.uk
>>
>> Follow me as a Swift scientist on Twitter: @swift_phil
>> http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~pae9/twitter
>>
>>
>
Received on Friday, 5 August 2011 14:50:12 GMT

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