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Re: Question re: WCAG2.0, Requirement 3.3.2

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:32:02 -0500
To: Phil Evans <pae9@star.le.ac.uk>
Cc: Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-id: <4CDE0854-AB55-45D2-ADDC-1F77D223D9BB@trace.wisc.edu>
please also pass on to them that TECHNIQUES are never required.

We have a number of tool developers who are looking for anything testable and are including all sorts of techniques (advisory or regular) as tests for WCAG conformance. 

These techniques are just that - techniques.   If they want to test for the technique use -- that is fine but they cannot and should not say that any technique is required. 

Gregg
--------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Director Trace R&D Center
Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
and Biomedical Engineering
University of Wisconsin-Madison

Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International
and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project
http://Raisingthefloor.org   ---   http://GPII.net








On Jun 15, 2011, at 6:56 AM, Phil Evans wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Thanks to both of you, yes, this helps a lot. I did seem complete overkill to be requiring a specific order for form elements like this!
> 
> I will pass this information on to the developers of "total validator" (http://www.totalvalidator.com/) since it was their tool that flagged this positioning situation as an error (I miss Bobby!)
> 
> And I will relax in the knowledge that my pages are in fact meeting the WCAG requirement I was aiming for!
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Phil
> 
> On 15/06/11 12:53, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>> Charles is correct. There is no requirement that the labels be in any
>> place. the ONLY requirement is the Success Criteria.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Techniques are NEVER requirements. They are just one technique. If they
>> are specified in the understanding document as "WG feels they are
>> sufficient" it means just that. The working group feels that this
>> TECHNIQUE is sufficient to meet the Success Criteria (or some part of
>> it) as specified.
>> - it does NOT mean that it is the ONLY way to meet the SC
>> - therefore it can NEVER mean that it is required.
>> It also does NOT mean that there are no other ways to meet the SC. There
>> may be other ways - ways that are not listed in any of the techniques.
>> In fact the working group is continually developing and reviewing
>> techniques sent in by others and adding them to the techniques document.
>> There will be a revisions released soon adding scores of new techniques.
>> 
>> 
>> NOTE: that the test at the end of the technique is a test of whether the
>> TECHNIQUE AS WRITTEN has been met. But the technique is not required to
>> meet the SC. it is only one known and recognized way to meet the SC.
>> 
>> The ONLY things that are required are the Success Criteria.
>> 
>> Does this help?
>> 
>> 
>> /Gregg/
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>> Director Trace R&D Center
>> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
>> and Biomedical Engineering
>> University of Wisconsin-Madison
>> 
>> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International
>> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project
>> http://Raisingthefloor.org --- http://GPII.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 15, 2011, at 2:33 AM, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Phil,
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:01:11 +0200, Phil Evans <pae9@star.le.ac.uk
>>> <mailto:pae9@star.le.ac.uk>> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> "3.3.2 Labels or Instructions: Labels or instructions are provided
>>>> when content requires user input. (Level A) "
>>>> 
>>>> This seems straightforward enough. However, following via the link
>>>> "How to meet 3.3.2" leads to the page:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20101014/H44
>>>> 
>>>> which includes the line, 'Note that the label is positioned after
>>>> input elements of type="checkbox" and type="radio".'
>>>> 
>>>> It is not clear to me whether this is a *requirement* or not
>>>> (although the validator I am using assumes it is). That is, is the
>>>> following part of a form OK or not?
>>> 
>>> The text is part of an old requirement (written when implementation of
>>> <label> wasn't very good) which called for *consistent* placement of
>>> labels in relation to controls, and suggested that the *common*
>>> pattern for checkboxes was to place text after them.
>>> 
>>> While you should certainly ensure that you layout is consistent, I
>>> don't think you need to worry so much whether your labels are
>>> typically before or after the thing they are labeling (so long as they
>>> have proper markup they are likely to be useful in most modern software).
>>> 
>>> IMHO, of course
>>> 
>>> cheers
>>> 
>>> Chaals
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Charles McCathieNevile Opera Software, Standards Group
>>> je parle franšais -- hablo espa˝ol -- jeg lŠrer norsk
>>> http://my.opera.com/chaals Try Opera: http://www.opera.com
>>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------
> 
> Phil Evans,
> Swift Development Scientist
> X-ray and Observational Astronomy Group,
> University of Leicester
> 
> Tel: +44 (0)116 252 5059
> Mobile: +44 (0)7780 980240
> pae9@star.le.ac.uk
> http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~pae9
> http://www.swift.ac.uk
> 
> Follow me as a Swift scientist on Twitter: @swift_phil
> http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~pae9/twitter
> 
Received on Wednesday, 15 June 2011 14:32:44 GMT

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