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Re: Question re: WCAG2.0, Requirement 3.3.2

From: Phil Evans <pae9@star.le.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:56:34 +0100
Message-ID: <4DF89DF2.5050300@star.le.ac.uk>
To: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Cc: Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org

Thanks to both of you, yes, this helps a lot. I did seem complete 
overkill to be requiring a specific order for form elements like this!

I will pass this information on to the developers of "total validator" 
(http://www.totalvalidator.com/) since it was their tool that flagged 
this positioning situation as an error (I miss Bobby!)

And I will relax in the knowledge that my pages are in fact meeting the 
WCAG requirement I was aiming for!

Thanks again,


On 15/06/11 12:53, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> Charles is correct. There is no requirement that the labels be in any
> place. the ONLY requirement is the Success Criteria.
> Techniques are NEVER requirements. They are just one technique. If they
> are specified in the understanding document as "WG feels they are
> sufficient" it means just that. The working group feels that this
> TECHNIQUE is sufficient to meet the Success Criteria (or some part of
> it) as specified.
> - it does NOT mean that it is the ONLY way to meet the SC
> - therefore it can NEVER mean that it is required.
> It also does NOT mean that there are no other ways to meet the SC. There
> may be other ways - ways that are not listed in any of the techniques.
> In fact the working group is continually developing and reviewing
> techniques sent in by others and adding them to the techniques document.
> There will be a revisions released soon adding scores of new techniques.
> NOTE: that the test at the end of the technique is a test of whether the
> TECHNIQUE AS WRITTEN has been met. But the technique is not required to
> meet the SC. it is only one known and recognized way to meet the SC.
> The ONLY things that are required are the Success Criteria.
> Does this help?
> /Gregg/
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> Director Trace R&D Center
> Professor Industrial & Systems Engineering
> and Biomedical Engineering
> University of Wisconsin-Madison
> Co-Director, Raising the Floor - International
> and the Global Public Inclusive Infrastructure Project
> http://Raisingthefloor.org --- http://GPII.net
> On Jun 15, 2011, at 2:33 AM, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>> Hi Phil,
>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:01:11 +0200, Phil Evans <pae9@star.le.ac.uk
>> <mailto:pae9@star.le.ac.uk>> wrote:
>> ...
>>> "3.3.2 Labels or Instructions: Labels or instructions are provided
>>> when content requires user input. (Level A) "
>>> This seems straightforward enough. However, following via the link
>>> "How to meet 3.3.2" leads to the page:
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20101014/H44
>>> which includes the line, 'Note that the label is positioned after
>>> input elements of type="checkbox" and type="radio".'
>>> It is not clear to me whether this is a *requirement* or not
>>> (although the validator I am using assumes it is). That is, is the
>>> following part of a form OK or not?
>> The text is part of an old requirement (written when implementation of
>> <label> wasn't very good) which called for *consistent* placement of
>> labels in relation to controls, and suggested that the *common*
>> pattern for checkboxes was to place text after them.
>> While you should certainly ensure that you layout is consistent, I
>> don't think you need to worry so much whether your labels are
>> typically before or after the thing they are labeling (so long as they
>> have proper markup they are likely to be useful in most modern software).
>> IMHO, of course
>> cheers
>> Chaals
>> --
>> Charles McCathieNevile Opera Software, Standards Group
>> je parle franšais -- hablo espa˝ol -- jeg lŠrer norsk
>> http://my.opera.com/chaals Try Opera: http://www.opera.com


Phil Evans,
Swift Development Scientist
X-ray and Observational Astronomy Group,
University of Leicester

Tel: +44 (0)116 252 5059
Mobile: +44 (0)7780 980240

Follow me as a Swift scientist on Twitter: @swift_phil
Received on Wednesday, 15 June 2011 11:57:13 UTC

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