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Re: Layout Tables vs. Style Sheets

From: Harry Loots <harry.loots@ieee.org>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:31:54 +0100
To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-Id: <20081007223154.M96194@ieee.org>

Matt Morgan-May  wrote:

> ... The issue is that table 
> layout is easier to teach to newbies, who were the target of this 

> ... Unfortunately, we can't just round them up and force all 
> web designers and developers to get the CSS religion. We've wrestled 
> with this for 10 years, and we may have to do it for 10 more.

speaking as a former lecturer: 
once you teach someone a wrong way it normally sticks... and to undo what has
been retained in those first few strokes of discovery will probably take 10
years. Perhaps Adobe would like to lead the way here - teach people how to
build a web-page the right way; from stroke one. 
For example, why not:
1) Create a div, add some content, 2) create another one, add more content 3)
view results; 4) add some CSS 5) position one above the other; 6) position one
inside the other; 7) position one adjacent the other; 8) now position div 2
above div 1, 9) and so on... and wow! one amazed student will marvel at the
power of CSS... 



PS! IMHO: developers who build standards-based websites normally prefer
Notepad ;) 


Kind regards
Harry

Mob: +44 7826 926 994

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 We do not inherit the Earth from our Parents-
 We are simply Borrowing it from our Children!

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---------- Original Message -----------
From: Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>
To: David Woolley <forums@david-woolley.me.uk>, "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org"
<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:08:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Layout Tables vs. Style Sheets

> On 10/7/08 1:40 PM, "David Woolley" <forums@david-woolley.me.uk> wrote:
> > Tools like Dreamweaver are for commercial
> > artists, and advertising copywriters, not for communicators.  HTML was
> > never intended for that sort of use.
> 
> I think you seriously misunderstand the market for Dreamweaver. It's
> targeted for web developers and designers, not "artists and advertising
> copywriters." I wouldn't put DW in front of either group and expect good
> results.
> 
> The issue here is not that Dreamweaver doesn't support CSS-based 
> layout. It supports it very well, thank you. The issue is that table 
> layout is easier to teach to newbies, who were the target of this 
> tutorial. In fact, if you look at page one of the tutorial in 
> question, you will find this note:
> 
> "Dreamweaver now comes with many wonderful pre-designed CSS layouts 
> that you can use as the starting point for your web pages. I didn't 
> want to start you off with these layouts, because I think it's 
> important for people to experience what it's like to build a page 
> layout completely from scratch. After you've completed this tutorial 
> series, however, you will probably want to investigate CSS layouts. 
> You can start by reading CSS page layout basics, which is an 
> overview of how CSS layouts work. Then move on to Stephanie 
> Sullivan's article, Understanding the new Dreamweaver CS3 CSS layouts."
> 
> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/dreamweaver/articles/first_website_pt2.html
> 
> It's troubling, though, that so many _seasoned professionals_ still use
> layout tables. And that so many books and curricula teach how to do 
> it, rather than using CSS, without such a disclaimer. For example, Teach
> Yourself Visually XHTML & CSS, whose first edition was published by 
> Wiley in July _2008_, teaches table-based layout. Lots of this 
> material needs to be revisited, and lots of people need to be 
> retrained. Unfortunately, we can't just round them up and force all 
> web designers and developers to get the CSS religion. We've wrestled 
> with this for 10 years, and we may have to do it for 10 more.
> 
> -
> m
------- End of Original Message -------
Received on Tuesday, 7 October 2008 22:32:33 GMT

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