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Re: DC2002 and Accessibility Metadata

From: Jim Ley <jim@jibbering.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:50:26 -0000
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-ID: <am2a7n$c9i$1@main.gmane.org>


"John Foliot - bytown internet" <foliot@bytowninternet.com> wrote in
message news:GKEFJJEKDDIMBHJOGLENCEIECLAA.foliot@bytowninternet.com...

I don't disagree with your conclusions, (popup windows best avoided) I do
however disagree with most of the arguments.

> * W3C Priority 1, 6.3: "Ensure that pages are usable when scripts,
applets,
> or other programmatic objects are turned off or not supported. If this
is
> not possible, provide equivalent information on an alternative
accessible
> page."

Opening new windows in no way relies on javascript, and when javascript
is used, this can be for added benefit (such as validity to a HTML
version without the target attribute, or more control to the user etc.)

<a href="/moo"> ... </a>

is equivalent to

<a href="/moo" onclick="//cause moo to open in new window"> ... </a>

as far as scripts being disabled, the result of activation on the link is
the /moo resource being available to the user, the script will just
suggest some additional behaviour, the accessibility of moo isn't
effected because of the script (it will of course because of the new
window, I hope the distinction is clear.)

> * W3C Priority 2, 10.1: "Until user agents allow users to turn off
spawned
> windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not
change
> the current window without informing the user." (Now it can be argued
that
> users *can* turn off pop-up windows [using applications like
"pop-up-cop",
> etc.], but then the content is not accessible...)

I believe there are many UA's which do allow, in fact I don't know of a
combination which doesn't under some configuration, neither should it
prevent access to the content (if the script is appropriately authored)

> * W3C Priority 2, 3.4: "Use relative rather than absolute units in
markup
> language attribute values and style sheet property values."

I don't see the relevance here at all, firstly it doesn't mention script
values, and it's a side issue to the main point of opening a new window.

> The
> "confusion" factor may also come into play for persons with cognitive
> disabilities, or simply new users

This is certainly an issue I agree with.

> (how many times have you heard about the
> frustration encountered when the "Back" button doesn't work?).

The default behaviour in UA's that I know of is for the history to be
copied to new windows, therefore the back button will work, it has to be
specifically disabled, so whilst yes that is something to include in
techniques documents, I can't see that it's a reason not to use.

> Also, people
> who have disabled script support or whose browsers do not support
scripting
> (11% according to some stats:
> http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2002/August/javas.php) will not "get
the
> message".

Of course they will, "don't rely on script" is well covered in WCAG, but
it's a seperate issue to new windows.

> Using JavaScript one can sort of sniff for user agents now (and plugins
for
> that matter),

I have to say I don't believe they can even "sort of" let alone anything
else.

Jim.
Received on Sunday, 15 September 2002 11:50:37 GMT

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