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RE: New Window inform

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:25:27 -0400 (EDT)
To: Steve Vosloo <stevenvosloo@yahoo.com>
cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0209130713440.16806-100000@tux.w3.org>

No, I don't think you can be in double-A conformance without satisfying each
Priority 2 checkpoint. The conformance section is pretty straightforward. If
you say that things are WCAG double-A when they are demonstrably not, it may
not be a good idea in the medium term...

What the checkpoint says is that you must inform the user "until user agents"
do it themselves. Remember than back in 1998 and 1999 when the guidelines
were being finished this was looking forward to the day when user agents did
this, and the requirement on authors would vanish.

The problem for users is that unless they know they are having a new window w
opened they get confused and disoriented. I know, because it happens to me.
And I can see the screen and find out what is happening. So I use a user
agent (iCab) that does tell me when a New Window will be opened (unless
people do stupid things like link to a piece of javascript), and one (Amaya)
that just won't follow instructions to make new windows except from the user.

I think that a case could be made that user agents can inform the user, and
therefore the checkpoint is not applicable. At the moment the market
penetration of such user agents (Amaya, snufkin-enhanced Explorer, iCab, etc)
is pretty poor, so it is a very weak case that I would expect to fail under
real-world testing...

But not for too much longer I hope. Browsers are improving. The work being
done on the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines includes making sure that
there are implementations of the requirements, and if you want a particular
feature you should be able to find a browser that does it. (If you want all
of them then it is like any other standard - complain to your browser maker).

cheers

Chaals

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Steve Vosloo wrote:

>
>In summary, some user agents that create a list of links for a page do
>not open those links in pop-up or new windows, so including the warning
>as part of the link would not be correct. Other user agents
>automatically inform the user of pop-up or new windows, so including the
>warning as part of the link would result in a double description, e.g.
>"Link: Microsoft, opens in a new window. Link opens a new browser
>window."
>
>Until a workable solution is found, it seems the best is to leave it up
>to the user agent to inform the user of a pop-up or new window.
>
>If we have good motivation for an action, as above, do you feel that one
>can still award Level-AA compliance even though this checkpoint has not
>been strictly adhered to?
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd G. Rasmussen
>> Sent: 10 September 2002 09:14 PM
>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: New Window inform
>>
>>
>>
>> A Windows user can go into the Start, Settings, Control
>> Panel, Sounds applet and assign sounds  or earcons to the
>> "open program" and "close program" events.  Good sound
>> effects are in the Utopia and Robots sound schemes.  While
>> there, assign the "program error" sound from the Robots
>> scheme to program errors, and you have a crash which really
>> sounds like a crash.
>>
>> These earcons don't warn you that a new window is about to
>> open, but tell you when your actions or the actions of an
>> advertisement have opened another window.  The annoying thing
>> is that, in your effort to close various windows, you will
>> end up closing too many and end your browsing session prematurely.
>>
>> I would not put a warning inside a hyperlink.  Perhaps just after it.
>>
>> At 09:19 PM 9/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> Does anyone know which user agents don't warn the user about a new
>> >> window/popup?
>> >>
>> >
>> >There is only one user agent these days, as far as most people are
>> >concerned, and it doesn't.
>> >
>> >In practice, no mass market browser is going to warn people
>> by default
>> >as those authors not forced to obey Section 508 would not
>> stand for its
>> >getting in the way of their designs.
>> >
>> >
>> Braille is the solution to the digital divide.
>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
>> National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
>> Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
>> <http://www.loc.gov/nls>
>> HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>       <http://lras.home.sprynet.com>
>>
>

-- 
Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409 134 136
SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI http://www.w3.org/WAI
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Received on Friday, 13 September 2002 07:25:28 GMT

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