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Re: do vector graphics enhance our concept of self?

From: jonathan chetwynd <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:49:07 +0100
Message-ID: <006701c237c7$7fe55230$0201a8c0@RJCHETWYND>
To: "Charles McCathieNevile" <charles@w3.org>
Cc: "David Woolley" <david@djwhome.demon.co.uk>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>

charles,

not sure where you got the file size from.

My estimate goes something like this 50k / 10 images = 5k
however svg will have problems fitting into this, unless the file size is
~1k which does seem feasible
your example is something nearer 60k which is fine for a single image, but
may not work so well for sprites, have you thought this thru?
or perhaps youre not too concerned for 56k users?

did you give celinea a try out?
I can't get it to function at all, but that may well be me
http://www.celinea.com/

jonathan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles McCathieNevile" <charles@w3.org>
To: "jonathan chetwynd" <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
Cc: "David Woolley" <david@djwhome.demon.co.uk>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: do vector graphics enhance our concept of self?


> Well, jpeg itself doesn't have transparency, nor allow animation of parts
of
> the picture. So it isn't going to help you, and rather than trying to
rebuild
> jpeg from the ground up for technical reasons it seems smarter to use SVG
> (the specification requires support of jpeg, so you don't lose anything
that
> jpeg already provided). In fact if you want to convert an SVG to a jpeg
(and
> lose the transparency and other neat features - I'll try to make an
animated
> example) there is a tool available as part of the Batik toolkit.
>
> I think you should be moaning about the fact that your browser doesn't yet
> ship with SVG. (Some browsers do, of course).
>
> (It is possible in some versions of HTML to have a plugin downloaded
> automatically, but unfortunately you don't get to choose which of the
systems
> that can handle a particular format is installed. Fine for most people,
but
> it means that someone can't easily choose a more suitable plugin for their
> needs. Further development - see http://www.w3.org/TR/CX if you're
> fascinated)
>
> Cheers
>
> Chaals
>
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, jonathan chetwynd wrote:
>
> >Chaals
> >
> >Well it does look impressive,
> >so I'm stuck moaning about the failure of an easy way to degrade to jpeg.
> >
> >thanks again
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Charles McCathieNevile" <charles@w3.org>
> >To: "jonathan chetwynd" <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
> >Cc: "David Woolley" <david@djwhome.demon.co.uk>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:48 PM
> >Subject: Re: do vector graphics enhance our concept of self?
> >
> >
> >> I have attached an SVG image. The file size is a bit bigger than the
> >listed
> >> 3.2k, because it downloads two jpeg images.
> >>
> >> But it shows photo-realistic transparent jpegs which can be animated to
> >move
> >> around like sprites.
> >>
> >> This was generated by Jim Ley's annotation tool - you load up a jpeg
and
> >> trace around the bit you want, then say who it is.
> >>
> >> I found it by looking through his search tool -
> >> http://www.jibbering.com/rdf/foafwho.html
> >>
> >> The one modification I made to the code was to change the opacity
value -
> >it
> >> had opacity="1" for both photos, and for one I made it opacity="0.5" (1
> >means
> >> not at all transparent, 0 means completely transparent). It is not
> >difficult
> >> to adapts Nick's tool to do this by default, or as an option.
> >>
> >> What this shows is that with SVG you can easily select a piece of a
jpeg
> >you
> >> want, and use it as a photo-realistic transparent animated sprite. It
adds
> >> around 1-2k per image. It works in the Adobe SVG plugin (available for
> >many
> >> browsers - I used it in iCab on MacOSX but it works in Explorer,
Netscape,
> >> and compatible browsers. I haven't tested this yet in other substantial
> >SVG
> >> browsers such as Batik but expect it to work fine).
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Chaals
> >>
> >> On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, jonathan chetwynd wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Unfortunately, given our obsession with identity, if SVG is not
capable
> >of
> >> >photorealistic representation, in a small file size, then we might
then
> >seem
> >> >to need a (jpeg like?) high compression format, with transparency, and
> >> >capable of scaling. Alternatively if it were capable, perhaps a
camera,
> >or
> >> >at least a conversion tool would be extremely popular.
> >> >
> >> >In terms of images, bandwidth and accessibility, this may well be one
of
> >the
> >> >critical areas for development in the near future.
> >> >many images are just not accessible.
> >> >
> >> >jonathan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "David Woolley" <david@djwhome.demon.co.uk>
> >> >To: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> >Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:33 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: do vector graphics enhance our concept of self?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> > Can anyone point to realistic vector portraits, with a small file
> >size?
> >> >>
> >> >> That's really a research topic for low bandwidth telephones,
although
> >> >> the games people may also have something, but I suspect it is
> >> >> proprietory and may still require a texture map, as JPEG etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> It seems to me, though that this mailing list is not a good place
for
> >> >> asking the question.  If you are lucky, someone will know, but you
> >> >> are not targetting the question well.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd try the BT Research web site, as they were interested in this
sort
> >> >> of thing at one time.  TV broadcasters may be as well.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61
409
> >134 136
> >> W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI  fax: +33 4
92
> >38 78 22
> >> Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
> >> (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
> >France)
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409
134 136
> W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI  fax: +33 4 92
38 78 22
> Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
> (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
France)
>
Received on Tuesday, 30 July 2002 08:49:23 GMT

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