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RE: abbr/acronym - repetitive use

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 00:27:31 -0500 (EST)
To: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
cc: William R Williams/R5/USDAFS <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0111220015450.9770-100000@tux.w3.org>
I use iCab from day to day which renders the things which are abbr and
acronym elements (It is true that browsers based on IE suffer from the fact
that IE never implemented abbr as far as I know, but it has implemented
acronym for some time) and when I use Amaya it gives me the ability to
identify the elements, and to ask for the title attribute value.

In each case, they visually identify the element (Amaya through style sheet,
iCab by default). With iCab, a mouseover will cause the value of the title
attribute to be displayed in the status bar, with Amaya I can query for the
value with a couple of keystrokes.

No, I was not specifically talking about screen readers, although I know that
some people who use them seriously habitually use IE and have recourse to
other browsers such as lynx, or vice versa. Of talking browsers I know of,
Home Page Reader (major in the sense that it is made by a company and has a
marketing organisation behind it) and WebSound are based on IE, while iCab,
WebVoz, emacspeak/W3, are not, and for telephone-based systems I don't know
what they use although I believe that iSound built their own basis.

For people who use other kinds of assistive technology (magnification,
adaptive keyboards, and so on) there is less data about what software they
are using as far as I am aware, (most of the people I know of using
magnification are doing it under linux, but I suspect that isn't
representative of the general population).

Charles McCN

On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Jim Thatcher wrote:

  Hi Charles,

  Given that I now know that your browser is not Opera ... what is this
  wonderful tool you are using "that renders marked up elements such as abbr
  and acronym and shows me the expansion, just as if I was using a voice
  system?"

  Especially I would like to know how your browser renders abbr just as if you
  were using a voice system. I don't know how that would be. What "voice
  system" renders abbr and how is a visual experience going to compare with
  that?

  You imply that people "use several browsers simultaneously to get the best
  access with their assistive technology." If you are talking about screen
  readers, I don't think there are several browsers in use. In fact the major
  screen readers and talking browser are all using IE and no other.

  Jim
  jim@jimthatcher.com
  Accessibility Consulting
  http://jimthatcher.com
  512-306-0931

  -----Original Message-----
  From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
  Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile
  Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:52 PM
  To: William R Williams/R5/USDAFS
  Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
  Subject: Re: abbr/acronym - repetitive use


  Aaah, but that is only becuase your browser is not meeting your needs. I as
  a
  sighted individual can choose to use a browser that renders marked up
  elements such as abbr and acronym and shows me the expansion, just as if I
  was using a voice system.

  If all the browsers out there were really good, there wouldn't be an issue.
  But just as people need to make choces or use several browsers
  simultaneously
  to get the best access with their assistive technology, people who don't use
  assistive technology have to do the same thing.

  Charles

  On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS wrote:


    Now, I will not argue the point too enthusiastically, and mean no offense,
    but here's my take...

    To engage in specific behaviors which favor one population group over
    another is discrimination.

    The term "discriminatory" is not inherently immoral or "evil," for I hope
    each of us are discriminating individuals -- going about our daily
  business
    making all kinds of distinctions: it's how we make sense out of this
    (oftentimes) senseless world.

    In the situation to which I was referring, the repeated use of
    acronym/abbreviation tags provides information to people using AT which is
    not equally available to people who do not use AT -- it's an inequity
    present only because HTML allows this to happen (and the developer
    implements it).

    Given such design, and despite good intentions, my access to and use of
  the
    information is not comparable to the access to and use of that information
    by one who experiences a relevant disability. That I, as a temporarily
    enabled individual, must scoll back to earlier copy to recall the full
    title of an acro/abbr while those using AT are provided the complete
    information each time is discriminatory practice.

    Bill Williams




                        Kynn Bartlett
                        <kynn-edapta@idy        To:     "William R
  Williams/R5/USDAFS"
                        llmtn.com>              <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>,
  w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
                        Sent by:                cc:
                        w3c-wai-ig-reque        Subject:     Re:
  abbr/acronym - repetitive use
                        st@w3.org


                        11/21/01 01:03
                        PM






    At 1:01 PM -0800 11/21/01, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS wrote:
    >In this fashion, individuals who are temporarily enabled are expected to
    >remember the meaning of the acro/abbr and so it should be, as well, for
    >individuals experiencing relevant disabilities. Web presentation does not
    >really change this logic; in fact, repeated use of the
    acronym/abbreviation
    >tags at each instance seems discriminatory in itself.

    Hold on a sec here -- there's nothing discriminatory in using <abbr>
    at every abbreviation.  It may be pointless for other reasons, but
    there's nothing discriminatory about doing so.

    --Kynn

    --
    Kynn Bartlett <kynn@idyllmtn.com>
    http://www.kynn.com/






  --
  Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409
  134 136
  W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617
  258 5999
  Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
  (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
  France)



-- 
Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409 134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617 258 5999
Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France)
Received on Thursday, 22 November 2001 00:27:37 GMT

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