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RE: abbr/acronym - repetitive use

From: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 19:39:57 -0600
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Message-id: <NDBBKJDAKKEJDCICIODLGELCDKAA.jim@jimthatcher.com>
Hi Charles,

Given that I now know that your browser is not Opera ... what is this
wonderful tool you are using "that renders marked up elements such as abbr
and acronym and shows me the expansion, just as if I was using a voice

Especially I would like to know how your browser renders abbr just as if you
were using a voice system. I don't know how that would be. What "voice
system" renders abbr and how is a visual experience going to compare with

You imply that people "use several browsers simultaneously to get the best
access with their assistive technology." If you are talking about screen
readers, I don't think there are several browsers in use. In fact the major
screen readers and talking browser are all using IE and no other.

Accessibility Consulting

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:52 PM
To: William R Williams/R5/USDAFS
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: abbr/acronym - repetitive use

Aaah, but that is only becuase your browser is not meeting your needs. I as
sighted individual can choose to use a browser that renders marked up
elements such as abbr and acronym and shows me the expansion, just as if I
was using a voice system.

If all the browsers out there were really good, there wouldn't be an issue.
But just as people need to make choces or use several browsers
to get the best access with their assistive technology, people who don't use
assistive technology have to do the same thing.


On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS wrote:

  Now, I will not argue the point too enthusiastically, and mean no offense,
  but here's my take...

  To engage in specific behaviors which favor one population group over
  another is discrimination.

  The term "discriminatory" is not inherently immoral or "evil," for I hope
  each of us are discriminating individuals -- going about our daily
  making all kinds of distinctions: it's how we make sense out of this
  (oftentimes) senseless world.

  In the situation to which I was referring, the repeated use of
  acronym/abbreviation tags provides information to people using AT which is
  not equally available to people who do not use AT -- it's an inequity
  present only because HTML allows this to happen (and the developer
  implements it).

  Given such design, and despite good intentions, my access to and use of
  information is not comparable to the access to and use of that information
  by one who experiences a relevant disability. That I, as a temporarily
  enabled individual, must scoll back to earlier copy to recall the full
  title of an acro/abbr while those using AT are provided the complete
  information each time is discriminatory practice.

  Bill Williams

                      Kynn Bartlett
                      <kynn-edapta@idy        To:     "William R
                      llmtn.com>              <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>,
                      Sent by:                cc:
                      w3c-wai-ig-reque        Subject:     Re:
abbr/acronym - repetitive use

                      11/21/01 01:03

  At 1:01 PM -0800 11/21/01, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS wrote:
  >In this fashion, individuals who are temporarily enabled are expected to
  >remember the meaning of the acro/abbr and so it should be, as well, for
  >individuals experiencing relevant disabilities. Web presentation does not
  >really change this logic; in fact, repeated use of the
  >tags at each instance seems discriminatory in itself.

  Hold on a sec here -- there's nothing discriminatory in using <abbr>
  at every abbreviation.  It may be pointless for other reasons, but
  there's nothing discriminatory about doing so.


  Kynn Bartlett <kynn@idyllmtn.com>

Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409
134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617
258 5999
Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
Received on Wednesday, 21 November 2001 20:42:14 UTC

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