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RE: 10.4 Re: Checkpoints 10.4 and 10.5

From: Steven McCaffrey <SMCCAFFR@MAIL.NYSED.GOV>
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:47:06 -0400
Message-Id: <sb1780c8.021@MAIL.NYSED.GOV>
To: <asgilman@iamdigex.net>, <jim@jimthatcher.com>
Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Hi Jim etal:

     Could you clarify with the snipet below?
   <LABEL for="firstname">First name: </LABEL>

   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">

What do you vary and what do you hold constant?

1. Keep the text between the label tags, drop the label tags 
First name:

   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">


2. Keep the label tags and drop the text between tags.
   <LABEL for="firstname"></LABEL>

   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">

If I use 1 above and use the tab key, JFW 3.31 
skips over the First name: text 
which is still there and just says "Edit" 
so it is looking for some tag at least, although another tag besides the label tag might work.
Adjacency has no effect.
That is, I tried
First name: <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
JFW 3.31 still skipped over the First name: text.

If I use 2 above, again I just hear "Edit"
Now, at this point, I'm not considering complicating factors like tables etc.
I want to vary one component at a time to determine what causes what.

Am I varying factors incorrectly?


>>> thatch@attglobal.net 05/31/01 05:13PM >>>
Hi all,

The label (first name) works because it is adjacent to the text input field,
not because of the LABEL element. Screen readers have been picking up
prompts like this since they were born. Label-for is only interesting when
the actual text of the prompt is some distance from the INPUT element. That
happens, for example, in a table of INPUT elements, and then LABEL-for is

I know this has gotten far off the track of the original question but I
could no longer resist.

BTW, GWMicro uses Frames correctly. They are well "named" for both screen
readers and Lynx. If I were them, I would not have used the NOFRAME content,
but so be it.

Accessibility Consulting

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On 
Behalf Of Steven McCaffrey
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:24 PM
To: asgilman@iamdigex.net 
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org 
Subject: Re: 10.4 Re: Checkpoints 10.4 and 10.5

Hello Al:

     Yes, I agree completely.  My screen reader and browser are fixed, so
this is why I emphasized that I did not want to generalize.  For my versions
of screen reader and browser, it appears the label in the example I gave
works.  As for other screen readers I can't say.
Even for other codings of the form, I can't say.  I never know what is a

An examnple that doesn't work for me
is on the wired article page from a previous message
(JFW 3.31 IE 5.0)

I hear (skipping some links)
"Slash news slash image map link" then I tab and hear
then I tab and hear
"Combo box"
then I tab and hear
"Go button"

If I hit enter on the Combo box to go into forms mode,
then I hear
"Look for combo box Wired news"
(a pull down list)

I think the "Look for" is supposed to be associated with the edit field and
not the Combo box, right?
This had me confused for some time.
I'll try to find an example of what works.


>>> Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net> 05/31/01 12:29PM >>>

Both good news and bad news are informative.  It would help to have
examples of
what works and also of what doesn't work.  You and David seem to believe
we still need explanatory text, or at least some text, in the edit boxes for
best practice at the moment.  This is an "until user agents" provision in
WCAG.  So for objectivity and consensus, it helps to know what the actual
agents do with actual pages.

To sell this to web authors as the general rule of what to do, it helps to
chapter and verse documentation explaining in what situations alternatives
don't work.  Target page, OS, Browser, Screen reader with versions.  It


At 11:15 AM 2001-05-31 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello Charles:
>     Good question.  I don't want to generalize, so let me just give an
example that does work.  The example in section 11.2 of the
>HTML Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 works fine.  I
>"First name colon edit"
>then I hit tab and hear:
>"Last name colon edit"
>which is fine.
>The snipet for the first name is:
>   <LABEL for="firstname">First name: </LABEL>
>   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>Note my comments above are not about grouping form controls which is the
point of 11.2.  I am just commenting on the label element.
>>>> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> 05/31/01 09:50AM >>>
>If they have labels (using the label element) does this improve things?
>Charles McCN
>On Thu, 31 May 2001, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>  Hi Charles:
>       I'm using JFW 3.31.  I will just hear "edit".
>  Steve
>  >>> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> 05/31/01 08:43AM >>>
>  Thanks Steven, Dave.
>  Can you please explain what software you're using, and what happens?
>  cheers
>  Chaals
>  On Thu, 31 May 2001, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>    Hello:
>         I agree with David in that it is still an issue.  The consequence
>    that I will hear only "Edit" but will not know what type of
information is
>    Steve McCaffrey
>    Information Technology Services
>    NYSED
>    >>> "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com> 05/31/01 07:49AM >>>
>    it is still an issue although many have solved it.  even though you
>    to rub the text out, it is best to have something telling you where to
>    write because some renderings still confuse labels with edit boxes.
>    ----- Original Message -----
>  ...
>    the rationale for this one was that there were assistive technology and
>    browser combinations that would skip over empty form controls. I am not
>    certain, but I believe that this is no longer an issue. I will ask the
>    Web Content Accessibility Guidelines group to address this question as
>    fast as possible.
>Charles McCathieNevile
<http://www.w3.org/People/Charles>http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone:
409 134 136
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative
<http://www.w3.org/WAI>h" is supposed to be associated with thhttp://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617 258 5999
>Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
>(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
Received on Friday, 1 June 2001 11:50:43 UTC

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