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RE: 10.4 Re: Checkpoints 10.4 and 10.5

From: Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:26:17 -0400
Message-Id: <200106011725.NAA03453@smtp2.mail.iamworld.net>
To: "Steven McCaffrey" <SMCCAFFR@MAIL.NYSED.GOV>, <jim@jimthatcher.com>
Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
New stuff starts at AG:: below

At 11:47 AM 2001-06-01 -0400, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>Hi Jim etal:
>     Could you clarify with the snipet below?
>   <LABEL for="firstname">First name: </LABEL>
>   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>What do you vary and what do you hold constant?
>1. Keep the text between the label tags, drop the label tags 
>First name:
>   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>2. Keep the label tags and drop the text between tags.
>   <LABEL for="firstname"></LABEL>
>   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>If I use 1 above and use the tab key, JFW 3.31 
>skips over the First name: text 
>which is still there and just says "Edit" 
>so it is looking for some tag at least, although another tag besides the
tag might work.
>Adjacency has no effect.
>That is, I tried
>First name: <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>JFW 3.31 still skipped over the First name: text.
>If I use 2 above, again I just hear "Edit"
>Now, at this point, I'm not considering complicating factors like tables etc.
>I want to vary one component at a time to determine what causes what.
>Am I varying factors incorrectly?

AG:: You are varying things usefully.

It's not clear what the empty LABEL tag proves, but at least it acts as one
would expect.  And the negative result for the unmarked label wannabe text is
dead on.

There is another case you could try.  Here we put more interference between
label and the edit field, without going to TABLE lengths:

<SPAN CLASS="example fragment">
 Please enter your
  <LABEL for="firstname">first name</LABEL>
  <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">

What does your setup tell you if you make that variation and tab to the edit


>>>> thatch@attglobal.net 05/31/01 05:13PM >>>
>Hi all,
>The label (first name) works because it is adjacent to the text input field,
>not because of the LABEL element. Screen readers have been picking up
>prompts like this since they were born. Label-for is only interesting when
>the actual text of the prompt is some distance from the INPUT element. That
>happens, for example, in a table of INPUT elements, and then LABEL-for is
>I know this has gotten far off the track of the original question but I
>could no longer resist.
>BTW, GWMicro uses Frames correctly. They are well "named" for both screen
>readers and Lynx. If I were them, I would not have used the NOFRAME content,
>but so be it.
>Accessibility Consulting
>-----Original Message-----
>From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
>Behalf Of Steven McCaffrey
>Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:24 PM
>To: asgilman@iamdigex.net 
>Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org 
>Subject: Re: 10.4 Re: Checkpoints 10.4 and 10.5
>Hello Al:
>     Yes, I agree completely.  My screen reader and browser are fixed, so
>this is why I emphasized that I did not want to generalize.  For my versions
>of screen reader and browser, it appears the label in the example I gave
>works.  As for other screen readers I can't say.
>Even for other codings of the form, I can't say.  I never know what is a
>An examnple that doesn't work for me
>is on the wired article page from a previous message
>(JFW 3.31 IE 5.0)
>I hear (skipping some links)
>"Slash news slash image map link" then I tab and hear
>then I tab and hear
>"Combo box"
>then I tab and hear
>"Go button"
>If I hit enter on the Combo box to go into forms mode,
>then I hear
>"Look for combo box Wired news"
>(a pull down list)
>I think the "Look for" is supposed to be associated with the edit field and
>not the Combo box, right?
>This had me confused for some time.
>I'll try to find an example of what works.
>>>> Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net> 05/31/01 12:29PM >>>
>Both good news and bad news are informative.  It would help to have
>examples of
>what works and also of what doesn't work.  You and David seem to believe
>we still need explanatory text, or at least some text, in the edit boxes for
>best practice at the moment.  This is an "until user agents" provision in
>WCAG.  So for objectivity and consensus, it helps to know what the actual
>agents do with actual pages.
>To sell this to web authors as the general rule of what to do, it helps to
>chapter and verse documentation explaining in what situations alternatives
>don't work.  Target page, OS, Browser, Screen reader with versions.  It
>At 11:15 AM 2001-05-31 -0400, you wrote:
>>Hello Charles:
>>     Good question.  I don't want to generalize, so let me just give an
>example that does work.  The example in section 11.2 of the
>>HTML Techniques for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 works fine.  I
>>"First name colon edit"
>>then I hit tab and hear:
>>"Last name colon edit"
>>which is fine.
>>The snipet for the first name is:
>>   <LABEL for="firstname">First name: </LABEL>
>>   <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
>>Note my comments above are not about grouping form controls which is the
>point of 11.2.  I am just commenting on the label element.
>>>>> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> 05/31/01 09:50AM >>>
>>If they have labels (using the label element) does this improve things?
>>Charles McCN
>>On Thu, 31 May 2001, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>>  Hi Charles:
>>       I'm using JFW 3.31.  I will just hear "edit".
>>  Steve
>>  >>> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org> 05/31/01 08:43AM >>>
>>  Thanks Steven, Dave.
>>  Can you please explain what software you're using, and what happens?
>>  cheers
>>  Chaals
>>  On Thu, 31 May 2001, Steven McCaffrey wrote:
>>    Hello:
>>         I agree with David in that it is still an issue.  The consequence
>>    that I will hear only "Edit" but will not know what type of
>information is
>>    Steve McCaffrey
>>    Information Technology Services
>>    NYSED
>>    >>> "David Poehlman" <poehlman1@home.com> 05/31/01 07:49AM >>>
>>    it is still an issue although many have solved it.  even though you
>>    to rub the text out, it is best to have something telling you where to
>>    write because some renderings still confuse labels with edit boxes.
>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>  ...
>>    the rationale for this one was that there were assistive technology and
>>    browser combinations that would skip over empty form controls. I am not
>>    certain, but I believe that this is no longer an issue. I will ask the
>>    Web Content Accessibility Guidelines group to address this question as
>>    fast as possible.
>>Charles McCathieNevile
//www.w3.org/People/Charles>http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone:
>409 134 136
>>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative
><<http://www.w3.org/WAI>http://www.w3.org/WAI>h" is supposed to be associated
with th<http://www.w3.org/WAI>http://www.w3.org/WAI    fax: +1 617 258 5999
>>Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
>>(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,
Received on Friday, 1 June 2001 13:25:18 UTC

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