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Re: How Much Of A Problem Are Tables Used for Design?

From: Marti <marti47@MEDIAONE.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:34:34 -0500
Message-ID: <008b01bf31c1$44f63ae0$ea50da18@ne.mediaone.net>
To: "David Poehlman" <poehlman@clark.net>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <unagi69@concentric.net>
Cc: <webmaster@dors.sailorsite.net>, "WAI Interest Group Emailing List" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
I guess it is time to weight in on this one. First, I plead guilty to using
tables for layout!
It is darn hard to resist the flexibility you can achieve that makes your
pages look good no matter what size screen or resolution they are displayed
in. It seems to me that most of the table related complaints are because the
tables turn into gibberish when unstacked.  This usually seems to be the
result of a designer not considering this aspect and layering tables with in
tables with in tables (makes the code gibberish too).  It is probably easier
to say 'don't use tables' than 'don't use tables poorly' but I really don't
see the problem with using a simple table to make things line up nicely for
something like a list of links that will still make sense no matter which
way you 'stack' it. (other than it being a misuse of html of course - but
there are lots of cases of that)
Marti

----- Original Message -----
From: David Poehlman <poehlman@clark.net>
To: Gregory J. Rosmaita <unagi69@concentric.net>
Cc: <webmaster@dors.sailorsite.net>; WAI Interest Group Emailing List
<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: How Much Of A Problem Are Tables Used for Design?


> just weighing in here.  we've learned from Gregory and it has been
> acknowledged by others that improperly marked up tables are a barrier
> to some users and there is good evidence for using proper markup and
> not using tables for lay out <decoration>.  Although this may be a
> hard nut to crack, it is no less so than asking for captions in video
> or audio descriptions and yet, we saw from judy that kin was in error
> when he said if it comes down to making information available to some
> was better than making it available to none according to the current
> legal attitude.
>
> We could argue back and forth all day for the justification of a
> position on either side but it comes down to what our goal is.  We
> have two of them as I see it.
> 1> provide information concerning the how tos and whys of
> accessability for all.
>
> 2> be the poliece that helps inforce this practice.  In guarding your
> door Bruce on both counts, you are like the company who is accused of
> rong doing and then ttold to clean up its act and make sure it doesn't
> happen again.  Like it or not, you are in a prime position to aid in
> this but from this thread, it would seem that you are joining with
> what we might call the enemy in this senario.  The guidelines were
> hard to accept even a year ago and are still hard to accept but are
> getting easier.  If you show people that it is possible to lay out
> their datta without using tables and still make it look pretty or if
> they use tables for lay out then to do certain things that make it
> easier for all of us, I think they are just as likely to accept this
> as any other guideline.
>
> One of our biggest problems is the way all those legacy editing and
> creation tools handle markup and that the people using them in large
> numbers do not know a lick of html.
>
> I know you better than is stated above but thought you'd like to know
> that your statements on this thread have cast you in this light.
>
> We are all on the same side right?
> --
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> Touching The Internet:
> mailto:poehlman@clark.net
> Voice: 301.949.7599
> ftp://ftp.clark.net/pub/poehlman
> http://poehlman.clark.net
> Dynamic Solutions Inc.
> Best of service
> for your small business
> network needs!
> http://www.dnsolutions.com
>
> ---sig off---
>
Received on Thursday, 18 November 1999 07:52:46 GMT

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