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Re: Problem of Physical vs. Logical Order [was RE: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web

From: Anne Pemberton <apembert@crosslink.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:51:50 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990719105150.007beda0@apembert.pop.crosslink.net>
To: "Leonard R. Kasday" <kasday@acm.org>, "Waddell, Cynthia" <cynthia.waddell@ci.sj.ca.us>
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org, kasday@acm.org
Leonard,

	I frequently use Publisher to make web pages and have also run into the
problem of the program converting text boxes to graphics if they are given
a background color, border, or are physically touching/overlapping any
graphic files. It also converted a table to graphics, but I'm not sure of
the reason for that one.

	I usually save the pages as HTML, and when necessary, add/correct HTML
after Publisher puts it in HTML. So far, that has had no effect on whether
text is displayed as text or a graphic. Can you be more specific on how to
save the page in HTML to have the text boxes kept as text when the have
backgrounds or borders?

		Thanks,

				Anne



At 10:44 AM 7/19/1999 -0400, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
>Cynthia,
>
>Yes, Microsoft tried to help me create accessible version of Mi
>>
>>c
>Publisher docs, but unfortunately their initial solution
>>didn't
>>work
>adequately for out pages.  They're still working on it. 
>>Actually,
>>what
>we're hitting here is a basic problem of using editors
>>which allow
>>the user
>to drag elements around on the screen.
>
>Here's
>>the situation.
>> The original problem was that Publisher
>>would
>sometimes render text as
>>images.  Microsoft suggested using the
>>option to
>save as a web page for
>>CSS-aware browsers.  This fixed the
>>problem of
>rendering text as images.
>> 
>
>But the text came out in the
>>wrong order.
>
>The problem is that
>>Publisher, like other graphical
>>editors, allows you to
>create a block of
>>text and then drag it
>>anywhere you want on the screen
>with the mouse.
>>When it creates a web
>>page, it uses style sheets to achieve
>that
>>position on the screen. 
>>But the order that the text appears in the
>HTML
>>is something
>>different, (perhaps the order in which it was
>>created...
>this depends
>>on how they implemented the editor internally). So the reading
>order
>>comes out wrong.  
>
>The WAI guidelines anticipated this in checkpoint
>>6.1, 
>
>Quote
>Organize documents so they may be read without style
>>sheets...When content
>is organized logically, it will be rendered in a
>>meaningful order when
>style sheets are turned off or not supported. 
>Unquote
>
>There's a basic difficulty here.  For example, suppose a user position text
>blocks A, B, C, D like this:
>
>AB
>CD
>
>When the software renders the page there's no way for it to know whether to
>order it as
>
>ABCD
>
>or
>
>ACBD
>
>It's the same sort of problem Adobe Acrobat's HTML generator runs into when
>it's trying to figure out a logical order from a physical order.
>
>So what's really needed, when you have a Graphical Authoring Tools that
>lets the user independenly position elements, is a feature that allows the
>author to explicitly specify the order in which the elements should be
>read.  (It would also be useful to have algorithms, like the ones in the
>Adobe converter, to make an intial guess.)
>
>By the way, even though I'm talking about this in the context of style
>sheets, it affects any program which allows the user to drag elements
>around.  I get the same problem in Powerpoint for example. 
>
>Len
>
>
>
>
>
>At 02:13 PM 7/16/99 -0700, Waddell, Cynthia wrote: 
>>>>>
>>RE: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web 
>>
>>Lenoard- 
>>Did you ever get a reply to this inquiry? 
>>Cynthia 
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------- 
>>Cynthia D. Waddell    
>>ADA Coordinator 
>>City Manager Department 
>>City of San Jose, CA USA 
>>801 North First Street, Room 460 
>>San Jose, CA  95110-1704 
>>(408)277-4034 
>>(408)971-0134 TTY 
>>(408)277-3885 FAX 
>><http://www.rit.edu/~easi/webcast/cynthia.htm>http://www.rit.edu/~easi/web
cast/cynthia.htm 
>><http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.gov/access/waddell.htm>http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.go
v/access/waddell.htm  
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From: Leonard R. Kasday [<mailto:kasday@acm.org>mailto:kasday@acm.org] 
>>Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 7:41 AM 
>>To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org 
>>Subject: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web 
>>
>>We have a problem with some documents we wrote in "Microsoft Publisher", a 
>>program that makes formatted brochures etc.  We want to publish it on the 
>>web.  But the HTML output is basically just one big image.  In other words, 
>>all the text and graphics are combined into an image.  
>>
>>(Actually, it's a bit more complicated.  There are several images. Also, it 
>>happens with some documents but not others.  It seems to depend on exactly 
>>where text is placed on the page relative to the images.  I can't give too 
>>many details since it's being done by an outside contractor, not me: but I 
>>have seen and verified the result: a bunch of images of text). 
>>
>>There is a text output, but it's just plain text, no HTML, and no images. 
>>So it's not the universal HTML output we'd really like. 
>>
>>Finally, there's acrobat output but, besides the other problems with 
>>Acrobat being discussed on this list, the files are huge.  For example one 
>>of our newsletters translates to a 15 mbyte PDF file.  The text version is 
>>only 18 kbytes and there are 5 images and some shaded bars .  So HTML would 
>>probably be a fraction of a MB, much smaller, in addition to being 
>>universally accessible. 
>>
>>Does someone know a way around this?  For example, another page formatting 
>>program that imports Microsoft Publisher and exports better HTML?  Or some 
>>setting in Publisher that guarantees that all text will translate to text, 
>>not image? 
>>
>>Or is there some feature of Microsoft Publisher that we are not using that 
>>would help?  Perhaps some update somewhere?  
>>
>>Len 
>>------- 
>>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D. 
>>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and 
>>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering 
>>Temple University 
>>
>>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122 
>>kasday@acm.org         
>>(215} 204-2247 (voice) 
>>(800) 750-7428 (TTY) 
>>
>
>
>
>
>-------
>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering
>Temple University
>
>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>kasday@acm.org        
>(215} 204-2247 (voice)
>(800) 750-7428 (TTY)
> 
Anne L. Pemberton
http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1
http://www.erols.com/stevepem/apembert
apembert@crosslink.net
Enabling Support Foundation
http://www.enabling.org
Received on Monday, 19 July 1999 13:29:24 UTC

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