W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ig@w3.org > July to September 1999

Re: Problem of Physical vs. Logical Order [was RE: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web

From: Richard Haymes <rshaymes@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:42:37 -0700
Message-ID: <00b301bed22f$a2d02b40$6801a8c0@quinn.avp.org>
To: "Leonard R. Kasday" <kasday@ACM.org>, "Waddell, Cynthia" <cynthia.waddell@ci.sj.ca.us>, "Anne Pemberton" <apembert@crosslink.net>
Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, <kasday@ACM.org>
Please stop emailing webmaster@avp.org.  We are an anti-violence project and
receiving your endless missives on the intricacies of the internet interfere
with our ability to serve and react to victims of anti-gay violence in a
timely fashion.  Good luck with your work, but please, please, get me off
your list!!! Thank you,
Richard Haymes
Executive Director
New York City Gay & Lesbian Anti-Violence Project
240 West 35th Street, Suite 200
New York, NY 10001
Administration:  (212) 714-1184
24-Hr Hotline:   (212) 714-1141
Web Site:       www.avp.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Pemberton <apembert@crosslink.net>
To: Leonard R. Kasday <kasday@ACM.org>; Waddell, Cynthia
<cynthia.waddell@ci.sj.ca.us>
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>; kasday@ACM.org <kasday@ACM.org>
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Problem of Physical vs. Logical Order [was RE: How can we make
Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web


>Leonard,
>
> I frequently use Publisher to make web pages and have also run into the
>problem of the program converting text boxes to graphics if they are given
>a background color, border, or are physically touching/overlapping any
>graphic files. It also converted a table to graphics, but I'm not sure of
>the reason for that one.
>
> I usually save the pages as HTML, and when necessary, add/correct HTML
>after Publisher puts it in HTML. So far, that has had no effect on whether
>text is displayed as text or a graphic. Can you be more specific on how to
>save the page in HTML to have the text boxes kept as text when the have
>backgrounds or borders?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anne
>
>
>
>At 10:44 AM 7/19/1999 -0400, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
>>Cynthia,
>>
>>Yes, Microsoft tried to help me create accessible version of Mi
>>>
>>>c
>>Publisher docs, but unfortunately their initial solution
>>>didn't
>>>work
>>adequately for out pages.  They're still working on it.
>>>Actually,
>>>what
>>we're hitting here is a basic problem of using editors
>>>which allow
>>>the user
>>to drag elements around on the screen.
>>
>>Here's
>>>the situation.
>>> The original problem was that Publisher
>>>would
>>sometimes render text as
>>>images.  Microsoft suggested using the
>>>option to
>>save as a web page for
>>>CSS-aware browsers.  This fixed the
>>>problem of
>>rendering text as images.
>>>
>>
>>But the text came out in the
>>>wrong order.
>>
>>The problem is that
>>>Publisher, like other graphical
>>>editors, allows you to
>>create a block of
>>>text and then drag it
>>>anywhere you want on the screen
>>with the mouse.
>>>When it creates a web
>>>page, it uses style sheets to achieve
>>that
>>>position on the screen.
>>>But the order that the text appears in the
>>HTML
>>>is something
>>>different, (perhaps the order in which it was
>>>created...
>>this depends
>>>on how they implemented the editor internally). So the reading
>>order
>>>comes out wrong.
>>
>>The WAI guidelines anticipated this in checkpoint
>>>6.1,
>>
>>Quote
>>Organize documents so they may be read without style
>>>sheets...When content
>>is organized logically, it will be rendered in a
>>>meaningful order when
>>style sheets are turned off or not supported.
>>Unquote
>>
>>There's a basic difficulty here.  For example, suppose a user position
text
>>blocks A, B, C, D like this:
>>
>>AB
>>CD
>>
>>When the software renders the page there's no way for it to know whether
to
>>order it as
>>
>>ABCD
>>
>>or
>>
>>ACBD
>>
>>It's the same sort of problem Adobe Acrobat's HTML generator runs into
when
>>it's trying to figure out a logical order from a physical order.
>>
>>So what's really needed, when you have a Graphical Authoring Tools that
>>lets the user independenly position elements, is a feature that allows the
>>author to explicitly specify the order in which the elements should be
>>read.  (It would also be useful to have algorithms, like the ones in the
>>Adobe converter, to make an intial guess.)
>>
>>By the way, even though I'm talking about this in the context of style
>>sheets, it affects any program which allows the user to drag elements
>>around.  I get the same problem in Powerpoint for example.
>>
>>Len
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 02:13 PM 7/16/99 -0700, Waddell, Cynthia wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>RE: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web
>>>
>>>Lenoard-
>>>Did you ever get a reply to this inquiry?
>>>Cynthia
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------
>>>Cynthia D. Waddell
>>>ADA Coordinator
>>>City Manager Department
>>>City of San Jose, CA USA
>>>801 North First Street, Room 460
>>>San Jose, CA  95110-1704
>>>(408)277-4034
>>>(408)971-0134 TTY
>>>(408)277-3885 FAX
>>><http://www.rit.edu/~easi/webcast/cynthia.htm>http://www.rit.edu/~easi/we
b
>cast/cynthia.htm
>>><http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.gov/access/waddell.htm>http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.g
o
>v/access/waddell.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Leonard R. Kasday [<mailto:kasday@acm.org>mailto:kasday@acm.org]
>>>Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 7:41 AM
>>>To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>Subject: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web
>>>
>>>We have a problem with some documents we wrote in "Microsoft Publisher",
a
>>>program that makes formatted brochures etc.  We want to publish it on the
>>>web.  But the HTML output is basically just one big image.  In other
words,
>>>all the text and graphics are combined into an image.
>>>
>>>(Actually, it's a bit more complicated.  There are several images. Also,
it
>>>happens with some documents but not others.  It seems to depend on
exactly
>>>where text is placed on the page relative to the images.  I can't give
too
>>>many details since it's being done by an outside contractor, not me: but
I
>>>have seen and verified the result: a bunch of images of text).
>>>
>>>There is a text output, but it's just plain text, no HTML, and no images.
>>>So it's not the universal HTML output we'd really like.
>>>
>>>Finally, there's acrobat output but, besides the other problems with
>>>Acrobat being discussed on this list, the files are huge.  For example
one
>>>of our newsletters translates to a 15 mbyte PDF file.  The text version
is
>>>only 18 kbytes and there are 5 images and some shaded bars .  So HTML
would
>>>probably be a fraction of a MB, much smaller, in addition to being
>>>universally accessible.
>>>
>>>Does someone know a way around this?  For example, another page
formatting
>>>program that imports Microsoft Publisher and exports better HTML?  Or
some
>>>setting in Publisher that guarantees that all text will translate to
text,
>>>not image?
>>>
>>>Or is there some feature of Microsoft Publisher that we are not using
that
>>>would help?  Perhaps some update somewhere?
>>>
>>>Len
>>>-------
>>>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>>>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>>>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering
>>>Temple University
>>>
>>>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>>>kasday@acm.org
>>>(215} 204-2247 (voice)
>>>(800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-------
>>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering
>>Temple University
>>
>>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>>kasday@acm.org
>>(215} 204-2247 (voice)
>>(800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>>
>Anne L. Pemberton
>http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1
>http://www.erols.com/stevepem/apembert
>apembert@crosslink.net
>Enabling Support Foundation
>http://www.enabling.org
>
>
Received on Monday, 19 July 1999 14:47:53 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 5 February 2014 07:13:33 UTC