- From: Richard Haymes <rshaymes@email.msn.com>
- Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 14:42:37 -0700
- To: "Leonard R. Kasday" <kasday@ACM.org>, "Waddell, Cynthia" <cynthia.waddell@ci.sj.ca.us>, "Anne Pemberton" <apembert@crosslink.net>
- Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, <kasday@ACM.org>
Please stop emailing webmaster@avp.org. We are an anti-violence project and receiving your endless missives on the intricacies of the internet interfere with our ability to serve and react to victims of anti-gay violence in a timely fashion. Good luck with your work, but please, please, get me off your list!!! Thank you, Richard Haymes Executive Director New York City Gay & Lesbian Anti-Violence Project 240 West 35th Street, Suite 200 New York, NY 10001 Administration: (212) 714-1184 24-Hr Hotline: (212) 714-1141 Web Site: www.avp.org -----Original Message----- From: Anne Pemberton <apembert@crosslink.net> To: Leonard R. Kasday <kasday@ACM.org>; Waddell, Cynthia <cynthia.waddell@ci.sj.ca.us> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>; kasday@ACM.org <kasday@ACM.org> Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Problem of Physical vs. Logical Order [was RE: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web >Leonard, > > I frequently use Publisher to make web pages and have also run into the >problem of the program converting text boxes to graphics if they are given >a background color, border, or are physically touching/overlapping any >graphic files. It also converted a table to graphics, but I'm not sure of >the reason for that one. > > I usually save the pages as HTML, and when necessary, add/correct HTML >after Publisher puts it in HTML. So far, that has had no effect on whether >text is displayed as text or a graphic. Can you be more specific on how to >save the page in HTML to have the text boxes kept as text when the have >backgrounds or borders? > > Thanks, > > Anne > > > >At 10:44 AM 7/19/1999 -0400, Leonard R. Kasday wrote: >>Cynthia, >> >>Yes, Microsoft tried to help me create accessible version of Mi >>> >>>c >>Publisher docs, but unfortunately their initial solution >>>didn't >>>work >>adequately for out pages. They're still working on it. >>>Actually, >>>what >>we're hitting here is a basic problem of using editors >>>which allow >>>the user >>to drag elements around on the screen. >> >>Here's >>>the situation. >>> The original problem was that Publisher >>>would >>sometimes render text as >>>images. Microsoft suggested using the >>>option to >>save as a web page for >>>CSS-aware browsers. This fixed the >>>problem of >>rendering text as images. >>> >> >>But the text came out in the >>>wrong order. >> >>The problem is that >>>Publisher, like other graphical >>>editors, allows you to >>create a block of >>>text and then drag it >>>anywhere you want on the screen >>with the mouse. >>>When it creates a web >>>page, it uses style sheets to achieve >>that >>>position on the screen. >>>But the order that the text appears in the >>HTML >>>is something >>>different, (perhaps the order in which it was >>>created... >>this depends >>>on how they implemented the editor internally). So the reading >>order >>>comes out wrong. >> >>The WAI guidelines anticipated this in checkpoint >>>6.1, >> >>Quote >>Organize documents so they may be read without style >>>sheets...When content >>is organized logically, it will be rendered in a >>>meaningful order when >>style sheets are turned off or not supported. >>Unquote >> >>There's a basic difficulty here. For example, suppose a user position text >>blocks A, B, C, D like this: >> >>AB >>CD >> >>When the software renders the page there's no way for it to know whether to >>order it as >> >>ABCD >> >>or >> >>ACBD >> >>It's the same sort of problem Adobe Acrobat's HTML generator runs into when >>it's trying to figure out a logical order from a physical order. >> >>So what's really needed, when you have a Graphical Authoring Tools that >>lets the user independenly position elements, is a feature that allows the >>author to explicitly specify the order in which the elements should be >>read. (It would also be useful to have algorithms, like the ones in the >>Adobe converter, to make an intial guess.) >> >>By the way, even though I'm talking about this in the context of style >>sheets, it affects any program which allows the user to drag elements >>around. I get the same problem in Powerpoint for example. >> >>Len >> >> >> >> >> >>At 02:13 PM 7/16/99 -0700, Waddell, Cynthia wrote: >>>>>> >>>RE: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web >>> >>>Lenoard- >>>Did you ever get a reply to this inquiry? >>>Cynthia >>> >>>--------------------------------------------------- >>>Cynthia D. Waddell >>>ADA Coordinator >>>City Manager Department >>>City of San Jose, CA USA >>>801 North First Street, Room 460 >>>San Jose, CA 95110-1704 >>>(408)277-4034 >>>(408)971-0134 TTY >>>(408)277-3885 FAX >>><http://www.rit.edu/~easi/webcast/cynthia.htm>http://www.rit.edu/~easi/we b >cast/cynthia.htm >>><http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.gov/access/waddell.htm>http://www.aasa.dshs.wa.g o >v/access/waddell.htm >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Leonard R. Kasday [<mailto:kasday@acm.org>mailto:kasday@acm.org] >>>Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 7:41 AM >>>To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org >>>Subject: How can we make Microsoft Publisher Accessible on the Web >>> >>>We have a problem with some documents we wrote in "Microsoft Publisher", a >>>program that makes formatted brochures etc. We want to publish it on the >>>web. But the HTML output is basically just one big image. In other words, >>>all the text and graphics are combined into an image. >>> >>>(Actually, it's a bit more complicated. There are several images. Also, it >>>happens with some documents but not others. It seems to depend on exactly >>>where text is placed on the page relative to the images. I can't give too >>>many details since it's being done by an outside contractor, not me: but I >>>have seen and verified the result: a bunch of images of text). >>> >>>There is a text output, but it's just plain text, no HTML, and no images. >>>So it's not the universal HTML output we'd really like. >>> >>>Finally, there's acrobat output but, besides the other problems with >>>Acrobat being discussed on this list, the files are huge. For example one >>>of our newsletters translates to a 15 mbyte PDF file. The text version is >>>only 18 kbytes and there are 5 images and some shaded bars . So HTML would >>>probably be a fraction of a MB, much smaller, in addition to being >>>universally accessible. >>> >>>Does someone know a way around this? For example, another page formatting >>>program that imports Microsoft Publisher and exports better HTML? Or some >>>setting in Publisher that guarantees that all text will translate to text, >>>not image? >>> >>>Or is there some feature of Microsoft Publisher that we are not using that >>>would help? Perhaps some update somewhere? >>> >>>Len >>>------- >>>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D. >>>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and >>>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering >>>Temple University >>> >>>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122 >>>kasday@acm.org >>>(215} 204-2247 (voice) >>>(800) 750-7428 (TTY) >>> >> >> >> >> >>------- >>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D. >>Universal Design Engineer, Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and >>Adjunct Professor, Electrical Engineering >>Temple University >> >>Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122 >>kasday@acm.org >>(215} 204-2247 (voice) >>(800) 750-7428 (TTY) >> >Anne L. Pemberton >http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1 >http://www.erols.com/stevepem/apembert >apembert@crosslink.net >Enabling Support Foundation >http://www.enabling.org > >
Received on Monday, 19 July 1999 14:47:53 UTC