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RE: Navigational features

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 00:46:30 -0600
To: <jim@jimthatcher.com>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <00f801c5f89e$75f07020$ee8cfea9@NC6000BAK>

Yes 
The structures in a document.

The heading structure
The structure represented by nested list
The structure in any table.  

Not the markup structure but the fact that the information is tabular.  

A document may have many structures in it in addition to the overall heading
structure. 
 
Gregg

 -- ------------------------------ 
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D. 
Professor - Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
Director - Trace R & D Center 
University of Wisconsin-Madison 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Thatcher [mailto:jim@jimthatcher.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:19 PM
To: 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: Navigational features

Ah ha, you said:
> It says the structure must be programmatically determined
It does not. If it did then maybe we would be OK. It says structures
(plural) must be programmatically determined.

I believe telling you that all my headings are class="bh t1" satisfies
"structures may be programmatically determined" but does not satisfy
"structure may be programmatically determined"

In everything you wrote you used the singular. The visible structures are
all the table cells with class="bh t1". But visible structure is "heading"
and I can't programmatically determine that.

Does any of that make sense?

Jim
 
Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf
Of Gregg Vanderheiden
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 12:47 PM
To: jim@jimthatcher.com; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: Navigational features


Hmmm

The INTENT is that '' if they look and are used as headings -- they are
programmatically determinable to BE headings. 

So these would fail - as you would like.  But you are saying that 1.3 is not
clear on this - right?

Hmmmm  again.

It says the structure must be programmatically determined.  I don't see how
you could say that the visible structure was.   The table layout is not
visible structure.  If it LOOKS like headings -- that is the structure that
must be programmatically determinable. 

Can you think of a nice way to word the problem as a "common failure" so we
can put it in UNDERSTANDING (How to meet...)? 


 
Gregg

 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D. 
Professor - Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
Director - Trace R & D Center
University of Wisconsin-Madison 


-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf
Of Jim Thatcher
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 12:31 PM
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: Navigational features


Hi,

Thanks Gregg, and I agree. My concern is requiring content that looks like a
heading to be marked up as a heading to facilitate in-page navigation.
Example is a heading image on the left side of http://borders.com with the
text "Browse" in white letters on a greenish-blue background. You pointed me
to 1.3 (Perceivable structures within the content can be programmatically
determined.) instead of 2.4.1 where I was looking. OK.

When you go to my.yahoo.com, there are a number of pieces of content that
look like headings, content that most would agree are headings. Apply 1.3:
They all are in table cells (marked <td>) with class "hb t1". I think with
that information you can programmatically determine those structures. The
problem is this: The structures are programmatically determined; what kind
of structure is NOT determined. (BTW, they are marked as H1's on
my.yahoo.com.)

I am trying to get at something like, "perceivable structures and their
purpose (like list, heading, paragraph) can be programmatically determined."
It is not enough to be able to detect the structures. And I don't like that
wording either.

And the converse says use markup correctly, so when we programmatically
detect structure and purpose, it is accurate, e.g., an h3 really is a level
three heading (not a list item as on my.yahoo.com).   

Jim
 
Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931
Received on Sunday, 4 December 2005 06:46:37 GMT

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