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Re: ftf in Linz success criteria

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:42:28 -0400 (EDT)
To: jonathan chetwynd <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
cc: <GV@TRACE.WISC.EDU>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0207221326360.21640-100000@tux.w3.org>

I feel that it is reasonable, in making all sites accessible to all people
with disabilities, to illustrate them. If you want to discuss the finer
points of Greek theology with somebody who has a learning disability, or
suffers from dyslexia, it is helpful to illustrate the major information
points - events, characters etc. One only needs to open an organic chemistry
textbook to see this applied in practice (actually i am not sure what gets
included in braille textbooks. I know that there are images in some of them).

In fact I have great difficulty trying to think of content that could not be
made accessible to more people by being illustrated.

(As a side note: when I sayillustration, I am actually thinking of providing
multimedia. This could be sound - especially useful for may people in the
case of music, video - a good tool for explaining many concepts, or images.
If you read what I say as just meaning images it still should make sense, but
I would prefer to address the wider range of content.

I am aware that sound on its own, or images on their own, are no more useful
to universal accessibility than text on its own. We need to provide
information that meets the very different needs of a range of people, and
this group are in the business of describing how to do that. )

It may turn out that it is not feasible for most organisations to make their
sites accessible to this level, in which case we should either expect that
few people will conform to level one, or move the hard bits to a different
level and then be clear that level one doesn't provide even basic access to
certain groups of people.

Although our charter obliges us to work on access for all people regardless
of disability I don't think it makes specific statements requiring or
prohibiting differentiation of groups served by different checkpoints - and
our requirements suggest that we will provide that information.

Cheers

Charles

On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, jonathan chetwynd wrote:

>
>Gregg
>
>"It may well be possible to have some portion of the pages illustrated." is
>a significant step, and needs to be incorporated in the guidelines, somehow.
>
>Can you please point to where it indicates that: "the guidelines at level 1
>are to apply to all pages"?
>I've glance through a number of charters and not spotted this.
>
>Can the next charter make it explicit that not all content is expected to be
>accessible to all people, including those with severe learning difficulties,
>but that we are obliged to make a best effort?
>
>Where did it say this discussion was a level 1 priority?
>It certainly is not clear that this is de facto, surely some guidelines
>bubble up rather than appear from the top?
>
>thanks again
>
>Jonathan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <GV@TRACE.WISC.EDU>
>To: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 10:38 PM
>Subject: RE: ftf in Linz success criteria
>
>
>>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> I think you are right.   It may well be possible to have some portion of
>> the pages illustrated.  But the guidelines at level 1 are to apply to
>> all pages.  There is no question that illustrating etc can be done for
>> some pages and that it is helpful to all for some pages.
>>
>> Unfortunately the question that was under discussion was what we were
>> recommending be done to all pages.  Or all sites.    Do you feel that
>> that is reasonable?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Gregg
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>> Ind Engr - Biomed - Trace,  Univ of Wis
>> gv@trace.wisc.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: jonathan chetwynd [mailto:j.chetwynd@btinternet.com]
>> > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 7:52 PM
>> > To: GV@trace.wisc.edu; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>> > Subject: Re: ftf in Linz success criteria
>> >
>> > The fact is that for nearly all messages it is possible to illustrate
>> some
>> > of the text.
>> > Different users will require different symbol sets, and it isn't
>> > neccessarily sensible to attach symbols for ever word.
>> > It isn't necessarily possible to do this simply and easily with
>> current
>> > email, or browser technology.
>> >
>> > Guidelines such as we are discussing may well be difficult to
>> illustrate,
>> > graphically, but it is possible:
>> > "This is a picture of me in front of my house" looks a bit stupid
>> without
>> > the picture, I think we can all agree.
>> > We are not - that - far away from such a condition.
>> >
>> > As Gregg well knows there are email user agents that do produce
>> > illustrations, and can be set up to do this for any text.
>> >
>> > As we are discussing a future draft(2.0) which has no deadline, as
>> yet, it
>> > is perfectly feasible that this will be more nearly appropriate and
>> possible
>> > at that time.
>> > It is important to raise awareness now.
>> > thanks Lisa, sorry to have missed the f2f
>> >
>> > It is important that Corporate, and Government bodies provide some
>> pages
>> > that do comply with this concept.
>> > In fact most already do, eg maps, diagrams, photographs etc.
>> >
>> > Really, we may need to introduce this with something such as:
>> > Consider whether your users have comprehension and reading problems,
>> would
>> > they benefit from additional illustrations. or
>> > Ensure that 10% of all pages are designed to be understood by users
>> without
>> > reading skills,
>> >
>> > jonathan chetwynd
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <GV@TRACE.WISC.EDU>
>> > To: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:09 AM
>> > Subject: RE: ftf in Linz success criteria
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Hi Lisa,
>> > >
>> > > I just don't see how this is possible.   Could you show me what you
>> mean
>> > > by posting all your comments to this list with picture equivalents
>> for
>> > > all the text and illustrations for all instructions.
>> > >
>> > > This either sounds impossible or I don't understand what you are
>> > > suggesting.  In either case -- it would be solved if you would just
>> > > follow your suggestions for all postings to this list.
>> > >
>> > > > - use markup to support the conversion of test into non text
>> > > > -supply an illustration for each instruction
>> > > > - create a non text equivalent for all textual content.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks much.
>> > >
>> > > Gregg
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------------
>> > > Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>> > > Ind Engr - Biomed - Trace,  Univ of Wis
>> > > gv@trace.wisc.edu
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]
>> On
>> > > Behalf
>> > > > Of Lisa Seeman
>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:34 AM
>> > > > To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>> > > > Subject: ftf in Linz success criteria
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I was asked to write up the success criteria from Avi Bentz and me
>> for
>> > > 4.2
>> > > >
>> > > > here they are:
>> > > >
>> > > > - use markup to support the conversion of test into non text
>> > > > -supply an illustration for each instruction
>> > > > - create a non text equivalent for all textual content.
>> > > >
>> > > > We are intending to continue working on these by email.
>> > > >  let the debate begin......
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > All the best,
>> > > >
>> > > > Lisa Seeman
>> > > >
>> > > > UnBounded Access
>> > > > http://www.UBaccess.com
>> > > > http://www.AbleFish.com
>> > > > - Widen The World Web
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ---
>> > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>
>
>

-- 
Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409 134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative     http://www.w3.org/WAI  fax: +33 4 92 38 78 22
Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France)
Received on Monday, 22 July 2002 13:42:33 GMT

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